From Bulldozer to Enabler - Capacity, Consciousness, and the Spirituality of Leadership, with Fredrik Lyhagen
Why do we assume that effective managers automatically become effective leaders? In this episode, we explore how true leadership isn't about having all the answers, but about expanding your capacity to hold complexity and enabling others to do the same.
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn welcomes Fredrik Lyhagen, a leadership development consultant based in Prague, originally from Sweden. Drawing on his years of success in global IT sales and his more recent work with leaders and teams across Europe, Fredrik brings a deeply practical, grounded approach to a topic he once considered an oxymoron: the intersection of spirituality and leadership.
Fredrik also shares powerful client stories, including that of a senior leader whose need for external validation, rooted in a childhood where he was only appreciated for doing, never for being, had damaged both his professional relationships and his marriage. Through deep, reflective work, the leader was able to recognize the pattern, rewrite the story, and begin to lead from a place of humility and curiosity rather than fear.
This episode is for any leader who wants to understand the difference between reacting and responding, how to deliver tough feedback with compassion, why safety is the leader's responsibility to cultivate, and why the most effective leadership often comes from focusing on what truly makes us human.
Tune in to discover how capacity development, self-reflection, and a willingness to examine your own story can transform the way you lead and live.
Key Takeaways
Spirituality and leadership are not an oxymoron. The best leaders you've met are likely spiritual; they just don't use that word.
The "bulldozer" mode is a fear-based, reactive leadership style rooted in ego safety, the fear of being seen as incompetent or of losing your story about yourself.
Adult development theory offers a map: from socialized mind to self-authoring mind to transformative mind.
The subject-to-object move: lift your emotion out, examine it with curiosity, and ask what story it's touching.
A leader's primary role is to create the conditions for people to speak up. In a knowledge economy, silence is lost value.
Capacity development is a slow-burn, reflective, inward-looking process, not a skills training you can complete in a week.
Rewriting your story: if a story is made up, you can make up ten more. Then choose the most empowering one.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Fear-based leadership and the bulldozer mode
[03:35] Spirituality and leadership as an oxymoron, then and now
[05:20] Leadership as forward motion vs. spirituality as presence
[09:39] Kegan's stages: socialized, self-authoring, transformative mind
[10:25] The bulldozer mode and its consequences
[13:20] Case study: the competent director who couldn't hold complexity
[15:13] Fear of failure and the stories that justify our behavior
[23:40] Ego safety and the brain's inability to tell the difference
[24:27] Is it a leader's responsibility to help people feel safe?
[26:16] How to open deeper conversations: somatic work and naming emotions
[32:36] Case study: the leader who was only loved for doing
[38:02] The courage and capacity to deliver critical feedback
[40:51] The spiritual dimension: holding tension with compassion
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Fredrik Lyhagen
Website: http://fredriklyhagen.com/
Andrew Cohn
Music:
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Transcript
Fredrik Lyhagen: Recognize that it's based on fear, because we've been drilled in an organization to deliver, have the right answers, and move forward fast. So the idea of not having the right answers, not moving forward, makes us fearful, because then we might be failing our assignment. But if you move up to leadership, the primary role of leadership is to enable others. That also means that you can let go of your story about yourself that brings safety around being, I have all the answers. Today, it's probably what I call ego safety. We're afraid of ego death, but the brain cannot tell the difference. So the reactive response is very often, how can I restore a sense of safety? 20 years ago, I thought it was quite woo-woo and not connected to leadership. So that says something about my maturity and my sort of development of consciousness/capacity.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and/or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, I'm so pleased to speak with my colleague and friend, Fredrik Lyhagen. Fredrik is based in Prague, Czech Republic, although originally from Sweden. Fredrik had years of success in the IT sales world with some very big global organizations. In recent years, has moved on to the leadership development space, which is where I met him some years ago through some consultancies based in Europe. And, well, he talks about his own growth and how he said 20 years ago, he would've thought that spirituality and leadership was a bit of an oxymoron, but his thinking and life experience has evolved. And he talks about that. And we talk a lot about building capacity and the capacity to hold and with humility and curiosity about moving from management to leadership and what that involves, about how there's an opportunity for so many of us to develop a state of equanimity and ability to show up more present and more conscious as opposed to more reactive. It's a very interesting conversation. He brings a lot of wisdom to bear, and I hope you enjoy it.
Welcome to the podcast, Fredrik Lyhagen from Prague, but not originally from Prague. I'm so glad to finally get you on this podcast. We've been talking about this for a while. We know each other for a bit in different settings, and this is a wonderful new area of connection for us. So I'm excited to explore this conversation. Welcome.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Thank you very much, Andrew. It's a pleasure to be here. I've been following your podcast, and the topic of spirituality and leadership makes me very curious. What is that? So let's see where this conversation goes.
Andrew Cohn: Well, I'm curious about your curiosity. So why don't we start with, you know, what draws you to this topic? I mean, you know, I know a bit about your professional background. I know the work that you do. We've shared some of that work together at times. But for this topic, we don't talk about it very much, at least openly, which is part of, in fact, what this podcast is about. How can we do that more productively and openly. But for you, what draws you to this topic, or what is that curiosity?
Fredrik Lyhagen: I think many years ago, starting out in leadership, so being a leader myself, I saw spirituality and leadership a bit as an oxymoron, to be honest. You know, leadership is about business, is about corporate numbers, strategy, moving forward, outward-looking towards the market, and so on. Whereas spirituality, to me, at that age, you know, we're talking around 30 years old, was very woo-woo, a little bit afraid, difficult to grasp, really. But now, as I grow older, mature a little bit, the work I'm doing with leaders and groups, and also my own inner journey, I embrace spirituality. And I think that intersection of spirituality and leadership is more and more, at least to me, becoming crucial.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Well, essentially, you said a lot there. And one of the things that you mentioned is you were describing spirituality as distinct from leadership at that point in time. as you might have seen it.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: It's almost as if, as you describe spirituality, it's something we could be— you said it's hard to grasp. And it's almost as if leadership is about grasping and it's about controlling and directing. I don't mean in a narrow, choking sort of way. My hands are in a choking motion. It's not about that. But it's about understanding, clarifying, moving forward, making decisions, perhaps a certain part of the brain, very left-brain-oriented. Spirituality is hard to grasp. Yeesh, do we want to bring this into leadership? That because now what we're doing is perhaps we're acknowledging a whole bunch of things that we don't know. I mean, one of my experiences and observations about spirituality is that the more I delve into spirituality, whatever that might mean for me, I'm not trying to define it, but whatever, as I move that way, there's more that I don't know. And in fact, leadership is about knowing, isn't it?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And leadership is about forward motion, whereas spirituality is about presence. And do I have time to be present if I have the board on my back to move forward? Right? So, but, and I think sort of my perception of this oxymoron back then, I think it's quite common out there because, you know, I'm sometimes testing the words with the groups or the individuals I'm working with around spirituality. And there's a sense of discomfort with that, you know, hey, hang on, I'm a leader of a corporation here. But some individuals are willing to open that door and look at sort of what's behind that door and what is the defensiveness and fear related to spirituality? Where is that coming from? Where is it grounded in? The best leaders I've ever worked with have been spiritual, but they have not necessarily used that word.
Andrew Cohn: No, no, it's great. And the question I'd want to ask you, and this is coming from my, you know, very left brain, at least this question is, and what was your intention even with raising it with them? Like, you would raise this with them as a topic for a reason. What would be the benefit for you as a consultant, coach, leader? You brought it into the conversation.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, and I didn't bring it into the conversation with the word spirituality, but sort of my— what I'm most interested in, in my work is what I call capacity. So it leans on adult development theory, you know, Kegan and Susanne Cook-Greuter and these, these people. And adult development theory is basically predictable stages of consciousness development.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And without going further into detail there, it's really about how can I expand my ability to hold what is present. And to me, that's the practical application of spirituality because spirituality is essentially the same journey. How can I hold all the voices inside of me and all the turmoil around me without being consumed, incapacitated by it?
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And then I'm working with leaders in different phases of the professional career. You know, in the beginning of the career, it's very much about capability. So skills. We have a person that we see potential in and then we load skills on top of them. How to read a balance sheet, how to have a coaching conversation, how to run a project or whatever it could be. But then there comes a point where capability or skills is not enough in your role as a leader because the world is so complex, possibly even incomprehensible. And yet you need to hold that and make decisions. And you cannot increase your ability to make decisions under those circumstances by adding more strategic theory or more decision-making models. It's about going inward and increasing the capacity. So in other words, instead of just filling the cup, meaning adding skills and capability, how can we expand the cup so you can hold more? And I think that's how I introduce the idea of spirituality without using the words. Because I think if we look at the ancient wisdom traditions using the word spirituality, they're essentially doing the same thing. How can I hold everything that's going on inside of me that I'm not that comfortable with? And how can I hold the turmoil around me? It's a very similar journey.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and I hear you describing this in an extremely practical way. Is it, let's, we'll bring in these dimensions so that we can basically, we can be more effective.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. More effective.
Andrew Cohn: And that's the reason we're having this conversation.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. I think more effective in the sense of making decisions and navigating the world from a place of freedom. And with freedom, I mean, freed from the inner voices that is holding you back, making you anxious, afraid of failing. What will other people think of me, etc.? So you can be grounded in a sense of personal freedom that I am who I am. I know I have these positive sides, I have these negative sides. I'm aware of the negative and I can hold them. And yet I'm present with what's going on around me and I can make decisions to move things forward.
Andrew Cohn: Got it. So freedom from some voices that might hold us back, some parts, if you will, if you want to talk about internal family systems and things like that. Okay, got it. So freedom. Yeah, I hear that as you describe it, it's a bit like being unencumbered and to be like, okay, I'm just more available for what's happening and for really what I want and to be a little bit more self-directed is what I'm hearing as opposed to directed by what I may have heard in the past or what's still lingering somewhere in the back of my head.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, exactly. And this, what you say now ties back to Kegan with the socialized mind, the self-authoring mind, and the transformative mind. You know, how can I free myself from social conditioning in step number 1 and start writing my own story? And then how can I elevate that to look at the bigger system? So, if we jump over to corporate again, what is good for the system? And how can I be a champion or a guide of the system? And if you haven't developed that capacity, you become more like the, maybe like the bulldozer of the system. We need to achieve this. These are the targets. These are the strategies. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.
Andrew Cohn: And if that has happened, so what's— and we all have a different view of this. I have my sense of it, but what's the consequence? What happens if we go the bulldozer route?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, well, first of all, I have to add, it's not binary, right?
Andrew Cohn: Okay, got it.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Thank you. Yeah, which is very important because if you have the capacity to hold all the complexity and still be grounded in yourself, sometimes the situation requires you to go into bulldozer mode, if we can call it that. But it's a conscious choice. If you are in bulldozer mode and don't have developed the capacity to hold the complexity and show up fully, then you only have bulldozer mode, you know. And sometimes I have coaching assignments working with somebody who has developed the capacity, but reporting into somebody who has not yet. And that leads to a lot of frustration and conflict because the bulldozer mode wants to be right, have all the answers, point with the whole hand at where we're going, and then tends to look down and tell people, okay, you're going to do this, we're going to do this, this is how we're going to do it. Let's move forward. So that typically creates a lot of conflict.
Andrew Cohn: Well, right. And it also creates the necessity for, at least to some extent, that person reporting to the bulldozer has to communicate in bulldozer language, at least some of the time, right? You need to speak in those terms. Otherwise, you could just be disrespected or ignored or whatever it might be. So, yeah, well, maybe—
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, maybe disrespecting someone, but also maybe seen as weak because you're not forcefully moving forward. You maybe need to take a step back, ground yourself, look at what's really going on here. You know, you have this truth and this truth. They collide, but we need to live with both. How do we do that? So, you may be seen as hesitant or ineffective or, you know, because you're not just forcing forward. Right.
Andrew Cohn: Because from the bulldozer lens, forcing forward is what leaders do.
Fredrik Lyhagen: That's what leaders do. Yeah, because they need to deliver results.
Andrew Cohn: Got it. Right. So, okay. So, say more about how you can support that kind of reconciliation between these parts. I mean, my, you know, my, if we're using this bulldozer theme, bulldozers bulldozer is bulldozer and doesn't— you know, you're, you're saying it's not the behavior, it's the consciousness, if I could use that word, right?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: If it's a conscious choice, it's like, no, I need to be very assertive here. It doesn't mean I need to be destructive of individuals or disrespectful or anything like that, but in terms of being very decisive and firm, that's what I need to do. To me, that— I, I might use a little bit different term, but I'm with you in terms of what you mean. But the key is, is it conscious or is it just I'm always bulldozer 24/7. This is why I go home. I'm my bulldozer with my wife or my husband. And this is how I operate in the world. It's about consciousness.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And so, and you used the word consciousness earlier. So what can we do to try to shift some of that conditioned thinking that may move us or teach us or train us in our work experience to be that kind of bulldozer? What can we do to awaken to other possibilities and still recognize that we have the ability to do that and be assertive, if not aggressive, when we need to be.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Before we move there, I thought, let's give an example of a client I worked with that also illustrates it.
Andrew Cohn: Oh, cool. Thank you.
Fredrik Lyhagen: So there was a large organization where a very competent director-level person had a long career with the organization, and he was known for being very competent. He could turn around failing projects, he could solve engineering challenges, he could, you know, strategize about the way to go, etc. So he was given the opportunity to become the managing director. Of one of the business units. And in doing so, he got to pick his leadership team. And this business unit was struggling. The market was weak, the production facilities were not up to standards, too slow processes, etc. So sort of proper turnover was needed. And the challenge that the leadership team faced was that he was fully resting on his past experiences, credentials, as being the one that had all the answers, extremely competent, always promoted for competence. Whereas he had recruited a leadership team that had a higher level of capacity or consciousness, so they could hold in complexity of the situation. But he was struggling to hold the complexities. He was going into each of the different functions and telling them what to do, telling HR how to handle the restructuring, telling production facilities how to optimize that, telling sales how to negotiate the contracts, because he couldn't hold the complexity. And his way of proving his worth was going in and giving answers. based on his experience. And that collapsed. And then I was called in to try to support the team and this particular leader. And now coming back to your question, how can we support leaders like this? I think first of all, we need to recognize that the— if we go back to the bulldozer mode, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the term, but let's use it now since I started. Recognize that it's based on fear because we've been drilled in an organization to deliver, have the right answers, and move forward fast. So the idea of not having the right answers, not moving forward, makes us fearful because then we might be failing our assignment.
Andrew Cohn: Right. So it's all failure.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Fear of failure, yeah. And fear of being seen as incompetent, which is one of the biggest fears we have, right? Especially in our professional world. So I think it's important to start looking back at the history of this person. What has shaped this behavior? And as you're familiar, we have some exercises to facilitate that sort of looking backward and see what has shaped me to be the person I am in the here and now. Because that can quite often give clues to what are the stories they have about themselves that is justifying their behavior and keeping the fear contained. And then doing so, we'll typically find incidents in the past where they have felt unsafe or maybe even failed and then made a mental note of, okay, I can't do this, I have to do this instead. And then that's reinforcing not examining the fear of failure or the shame around the incident, but rather pushing it away and then focusing on what worked and just moving forward. So it becomes sort of a survival response in order to not have to look what's underneath all the capabilities that have been added on top of me as a person. And there we can typically find some clues to the behavior and the, you say, resistance. So that's probably step number 1. But then the step number 2, which is the more challenging step, is to help the individual to rewrite their story about themselves. Because in the bulldozer mode, you probably have a very strong ego story around being the one with all the answers.
Andrew Cohn: Okay.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Because that's how you've been promoted, you know. When you then move up to a leadership role, which I typically use a very simple distinction between management and leadership. Management's primary role is to organize and optimize. You get the box of resources and some targets to meet, and you organize and optimize that. And if you're a manager, it's very helpful to have domain expertise, to have done the work before. If you're a team lead for the accounting team, it's very helpful to have been an accountant because you know how to organize and optimize, right? But if you move up to leadership, The primary role of leadership is to enable others. That also means that you can let go of your story about yourself that brings safety around being, I have all the answers. And instead, rewrite a story about yourself that is based on enabling others, which requires humility, curiosity, how to navigate systems to get the best out of a system. What happens if I combine this with this, etc.? And that is the more challenging part of it, to help individuals sort of move to a higher level of consciousness, for lack of a better word. And it's—
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I—
Fredrik Lyhagen: Now I just want to add a final piece, and it's not something you do to fix a current issue. It's a long, like a slow-burn process. You know, if somebody doesn't know how to do something, you can have a skills training, and then next week they know how to do it. But when it comes to capacity development, that's a very reflective, sort of inward-looking, slow-burn process. So ideally, an organization should support leaders in developing capacity long before the leader's put in a position where they need it.
Andrew Cohn: Well, you've just said a lot there. I was making a couple of notes here. But I'd love to hear more about your view about sort of the— I love that simple distinction between management and leadership. But enabling others, it's like what you're saying is that that requires a— that's why some people just don't lead effectively. They can be really good managers, but they're not effective leaders. They're not effective at enabling others as far as you describe it. But I'd love to hear more about your experience and your thoughts about the humility and curiosity, because those are very different dimensions than what we're— obviously, than what's happening on the organize and optimize. You know, organize and optimize or be curious and humble. Whoa, those are 2 very different worlds.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And I would agree with you that those 2 are both needed in terms of leadership. So, you know, if we move from management to leadership, we're taking the management with us.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, exactly. Transcend and include.
Andrew Cohn: Transcend and include. Exactly. Transcend and include. But I'd love to hear you talk more about the humility and curiosity. And in part, where is that if another skill needs to be added to the skillset, right? More needs to be put into the finite cup, if you will, than we'll provide as skills training, right? What does an organization do to promote, enhance, develop humility and curiosity if that's what it takes to be a good leader?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Very little, unfortunately. I mean—
Andrew Cohn: All right, what should they do?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but if you look at the organization, pretty much all organizations have a training program for first-time managers because they understand it's a tough transition to start managing other people. So most organizations have a training program in place for that, but very few organizations have a training program in place for the transition between manager and leader. They just assume that since he's an effective manager, he or she can probably be an effective leader. And unfortunately, that's not the case. And the reason is capacity. So what is then needed or helpful in order to develop capacity? And I think it starts with the individual and self-reflection. Start exploring, who am I? And to make it more practical, why am I responding or reacting to this situation the way I do? And be curious about that. So, like a very, very simple example, if you say something now to me that is making me angry, I can sense something bubbling up inside of me, anger. The easy way for me would be to blame you, or you're stupid for saying things like that, you're wrong, it never happened, or whatever it is. And that's probably a bulldozer response. The other way of handling that is to do what Kegan calls the subject-to-object move. So I take that feeling of anger, and lift it out, and I'm curious. Hmm. I poke it. Interesting that what Andrew said made me feel anger bubbling up. I wonder what story about myself that he touched by his words. Interesting. Can I see patterns that this story pops up in other situations as well? What does the story want to tell me about myself? And then if you have that ongoing inquiry about who you are and how you show up in your relationship to yourself, then over time you can help these stories to lose its grip. around you and how you show up. Just to circle back to the beginning of the conversation, which is pretty much the same process all the ancient wisdom traditions have. Take Buddhism as an example, which I'm the most familiar with. You know, how can I show up with equanimity? Meaning, how can I free myself from the limiting or unhelpful behaviors and thought patterns that I have developed from a young child up until now or, you know, midlife typically. That's typically where the questions come. Who am I?
Andrew Cohn: Right. And so releasing those thought patterns brings us more or closer to a state of equanimity. Is equanimity good for leadership?
Fredrik Lyhagen: I think so. You can still have agency with equanimity, but it means that it's— you have the capacity to hold what's going on, reflect on an appropriate response, And then have agency from there instead of the autopilot. Using the bulldozer analogy again, even if I'm not comfortable with it, the bulldozer will probably react. I've seen this before. I did it last year. This is the wrong way to do it. This is how we're going to do it. Go. Because any other response, I would maybe jeopardize my story around being the competent one, have all the answers, all the experience. And that's very scary. to have that questioned or in any way sort of, um, yeah.
Andrew Cohn: So you're talking about this very important distinction I'm hearing between reacting and responding. Reacting, as I use the term anyway, reacting as more quick, something that feels instinctual when in fact it's driven by defensiveness.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Cohn: But it's a quick response which tends to associate itself more with the, which you, as you said, blaming, striking back or something. And, and, um, and And reactivity for me is an absence of reflection, which is, you're saying, is step 1.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, our biggest driver as humans is to feel safe. Thousands of years ago, when we lived on the savanna, it was physical safety from the lions hunting and/or us hunting, whatever it was. But since our brain have not developed much since then, today it's probably what I call ego safety. We're afraid of ego death, but the brain cannot tell the difference. So the reactive response is very often, how can I restore a sense of safety? And this is also then connecting back to rewriting your ego story, because if your safety is connected to being right and having all the answers, then you're very— your reaction is very often towards, no, I am right, you are wrong, let's do it this way, let's do it that way. But if your sense of safety is disconnected from that, and rather you can ground yourself in, this is who I am, this is why I'm here, this is my purpose, and I'm here to enable others, then you can hold that provocation or question that you're a bit uncomfortable with and say, hmm, interesting. I never thought about that perspective. Tell me more, Andrew.
Andrew Cohn: So, is it a leader's responsibility to help his or her people feel safe?
Fredrik Lyhagen: I think so. I mean, within reason, of course, but, you know, an unsafe team will not speak up. And we live in a knowledge economy. So if the people in your team cannot speak up in a knowledge economy, you're missing loads of value. You could, you know, miss a business opportunity or miss a market threat or something. So safety to the degree that people feel comfortable to speak up, even if it's an uncomfortable topic. I think it's up to the leader to create conditions for that. Right.
Andrew Cohn: Yes, thank you. And I appreciate what you're saying is that, you know, within reason, it's like, it's not— a leader cannot guarantee that. A leader cannot make people feel safe any more than— I sometimes have trouble with the word, you know, I empower people. I don't empower people. I'm not capable of doing that. We could create conditions, et cetera, hopefully, or aspire to create conditions.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: But maybe this would be a time to circle back to, you're saying, you know, when you have introduced some ideas into a conversation with a leader that might be bucketed as spiritual. Whether or not we use that word doesn't matter. And we all listening to this podcast know that that's not important. But so as you introduce these things, tell me what your approach is, what your strategy is, what your experience is like. How do these conversations— what makes them work? And of course, we're always listening for what's the benefit? What can leaders do? And I'm wondering how you support that process.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, I think first of all, it's possible but very challenging to do this alone. So I think you need to have a conversation partner, and maybe that's a professional like us, or it's just the best friend or your partner or whatever it is. But I think you need to have somebody who can hold what you're saying and then challenge you to go beyond each answer, so you're going deeper. So what I would probably do is I will ask the leader I'm working with to think of a moment where they felt challenged or failed or, yeah, like an uncomfortable moment. And then explore. So when that happened, what feelings were bubbling up? And I may want to sort of go embodied, like more holistic, you know, and can you place that feeling? Was it tightness in the chest? Was it the shoulders? And, you know, in order to get information about the situation from as many senses as we can. Not just cognitively.
Andrew Cohn: Right. So ask what's— and so just to unpack that a little bit, to ask to get somatic with it, what's happening in the body? Where is it felt? Colors, sensations, smells, size. Got it. Temperature.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Sometimes we need to—
Andrew Cohn: is it cold?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes we need to start with working on words for naming emotions. You know, quite often the range of vocabulary for emotions is very, very limited. And then there are various tools, so you can try to expand that vocabulary and look at nuances of anger, for example, or nuances of happiness, and, you know, all these things. So sometimes we need to start there to build a vocabulary around emotions, because when we have a word for it, we can start examining it. And then maybe we look at, okay, where does it sit, etc., and then try to go deeper from there. So when this happened, you felt anger and you experienced it as tightness in your chest. What is behind that? What were the stories coming up to you when you felt that? And the person may say, well, I felt threatened. Okay, where is that coming from? What part of you is threatened? What part of the message you received is threatening? Okay, has that happened before? Can you see a pattern here in that response coming in these type of situations? And then we can go deeper and deeper and deeper. And very often, we can identify an event in the past that was the, um, should we say, the nucleus of the story being formed. And then that story has been reinforced over the years by the person avoiding to look at that, but just sort of compartmentalize it and doing everything else that is approved or appreciated, not having to look at the origin and the, the power of that story.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And when we if or when we get to such a story, very often we can then talk about how that story is made up because the person I'm working with interpreted words in a situation, but they don't know if that was the intent of the other person. But they made up a story that made the story threatening, but it was made up.
Andrew Cohn: So that, and the word that I'm hearing when you say that is meaning, right? I made meaning of that interaction.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Someone else, someone else may have had taken away a different meaning from that conversation. For whatever reason, whatever the differences might be, but right, they made meaning from them.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And I don't know why you said what you said and how you said it, right? So I make up a story about the situation, a powerful story that has a very tight grip around me to the extent that I avoid approaching it and I just do everything I can to avoid and then build something else. But, and here's the exercise, if that story was made up, Let's make up another 10 stories where we interpret and make meaning differently than that you did. So then I asked the person to, okay, let's together create another 10 stories. And now we have 11 made-up stories. Let's pick the one that is most empowering for you. For example, well, Interesting. Andrew said what he said because just before our conversation, he had a big fight with his partner and he slept bad last night and he's really, really nervous about failing at the task. So then that came out in the way it did, right?
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Fredrik Lyhagen: A more empowering version of that story could be that Andrew cares a lot about me. He wants us to be successful together. And because of the past failures we've had in achieving this, he's now really eager to get it over with, or to get it right. So it came out a bit more passionately than I intended. So let's pick the most empowering story. And then with that, the original made-up story is losing its grip, has less power over my behavior and my way of thinking. That could be one way of doing it. But it's really a case by case.
Andrew Cohn: No, beautiful. Yeah. And so what I hear that is, it's a willingness to examine my own story. It's a willingness to, I mean, it begins with willingness and then we take the steps, but a willingness to unpack this and go, well, I'm willing to look at Am I willing to look at why I believe what I do, why I carry this with me, this meaning about what's possible and what's not, what's safe and what's not, I suppose more accurately?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Am I willing to look at that and unpack that and consider that there's a whole lot of other possible things? But that can be— and my hand is raised here from personal experience— that can be very scary to look at that because I've really got to look at what might be under that. But I love that notion of let's create 10 other possible stories. And legitimately 10 other really, like, legitimate possible stories here, not crazy fantasy. You know, Andrew behaved this way because he was picked up by aliens. No, it's something that's a realistic possibility.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. Yeah. And also, what's interesting here is that when we get to this stage, or when we have identified the behavior and the original story, the person I'm working with can also often see parallels between professional life and private life. You know, and now I realize that this behavior in my professional life, actually, my partner has been complaining about this at home as well, you know, because it's shaping all of us, where professional life is one expression of us and private life is one expression of us. And then that's maybe a different conversation. But over time, working with capacity development, we also see how these two converge.
Andrew Cohn: So, I'm wondering if you could share earlier in the conversation, you shared a story or a bit about your experience. Could you walk us through some of of how these conversations tend to work or might work, or even from your own personal experience, I'm curious to know, you've outlined a bit of a model. Could you walk us through it?
Fredrik Lyhagen: I'm gonna try and understand what you mean by walk you through it.
Andrew Cohn: Oh, just an example of what a story may have been, what a particular leader was working on. Just, you know, a case study.
Fredrik Lyhagen: So one example would be a leader I worked with that had a big fear of being seen as incompetent or incapable. And any situation where— and this was a he— felt a little bit unsure what to do or how to approach a problem, he would typically first stonewall and withdraw, and then come up with a solution that he thought was great, and then forcefully drive that through at the expense of maybe leadership consensus or, you know, people in the organization. Because it's more important to drive forward and be seen as competent in what he was doing than making sure that the sort of team was with him. They will eventually come along. This is the way we're going to go, my way or the highway type of leadership. And then when we started looking at the story that was supporting this behavior, we dug down deep and we came to a situation where he, in middle school, or throughout his schooling really, he got appreciation from his father for good grades and being good at sports. So he was only getting appreciation for doing and doing well. He couldn't remember—
Andrew Cohn: Ouch.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, he couldn't remember any appreciation for being. He never heard, you're so kind, you're so thoughtful, I love the way you play with your sister, or, you know, thank you for taking care of the kitchen today, or, you know, you have such a big heart. Everything was about grades and excelling in sports. So of course he built the story that I'm only loved if I'm on a strong forward motion and I deliver good results, which then from middle school all the way up to his position in professional career has been driving him. And to some degrees, that's been fantastic because he's gone places, right? A very senior position in a large organization. But at the same time, it has also caused quite a lot of damage on the way, both in his private and professional relationships. When I got to talk to him, it had caused so much damage that it was questionable whether he could continue the organization. And on top of it, he had realized that he and his wife had come so far apart now that there would be a lot of work to come together. So, and I think maybe the latter thing was sort of the reason that he was allowed to go deep, or he allowed himself to go deeper and look inward. And then we could sort of draw parallels between the 2 behaviors there, or the 2 expressions of the same behavior.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And I've seen, yeah, and I too have seen patterns like that. I mean, this is not an uncommon situation, I think, where it's called, okay, I've gotten some, some really gotten some strong feedback here from an organization that's willing willing to give it, which isn't always the case, right? I mean, I grew up in law firms and worked with people where it's like you put up with these paths of dead bodies along the way because the person delivers the results as they do. But an organization that's willing to provide that sort of feedback, and in a way, it's almost just that this is a bit of an aside here, but sometimes the lack of feedback is sort of like, well, I've been told I'm doing really well all this time, and now you're telling me that I need to change the way I'm operating?
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: So, in all fairness, sometimes people are a little bit blindsided and caught by surprise that, wait a minute, you're telling me? And then everybody starts nodding, oh, yeah, we've been saying this for years. Well, I haven't been hearing it. But just to call that out that sometimes it can land on people as very sudden and shocking feedback because nobody's ever either had the courage or had the means. I think it's more about courage, frankly, to share this type of feedback.
Fredrik Lyhagen: I also think there is an element of not having the capacity. Again, being grounded in yourself, you'll be able to hold that one person is creating havoc in the larger organization and still see that person with compassion. No, I mean, going back to the bulldozer analogy, if you are that person reporting to me and I am in bulldozer mode, I would just kick you out or pay a K, you're. You're not good enough, get out. But from a higher level of consciousness, I can say, he's been fantastic on a long way, has lots of experience, a lot of competence this organization can really use. However, I noticed that he has a glass ceiling in terms of how he can hold the stress and the situation we're in right now. Let's have a conversation with Andrew to see how can we support him. And this then leads us to another challenge. If an organization doesn't actively support leaders in capacity development, it's a high risk they're going to end up with low-capacity leaders all the way to the top. So there's nobody inside the organization who can help the more junior leaders on the way up to develop capacity, right? And I don't know nothing about the law companies, but I can sense that maybe that's the case there. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Well, it is about performance. It's about results. It's all about results. It's about— it's a winning and losing model. But getting back to your point and this leader who gets this feedback, and first of all, it takes, I think, again, a courageous leader and The person who's going to deliver that feedback has to have a particular level of capacity as well. It's like, because if I'm going to give that, if you're going to give this feedback to me, you need to be able to hold the reaction that you expect to get.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Exactly.
Andrew Cohn: Right? Without being defensive, without discounting anything, because you have a responsibility, of course, to the whole organization to deliver this feedback. I talk about that a lot with my clients. So you got to deliver tough feedback. Remember who's on whose behalf you're delivering it, which sometimes makes it a little bit easier to deliver. It's not just what I think, it's what all these people standing behind me figuratively think or believe or have lived through with respect to this behavior that I want to speak about. But it can be a very— it takes capacity to deliver strong, clear feedback that's not going to be well received initially.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah. And I mean, and you can deliver strong, clear, harsh feedback from a bulldozer mode, and you can soften it for yourself by saying, well, they agree, I'm just a messenger, right? So like when you don't have much courage. Or you can deliver strong, harsh feedback from a high level of consciousness where I've noticed these patterns, I probably don't have the full story, tell me more what happened in that situation and the reason for your behavior. Oh, that's interesting. Have you noticed this in you before? And then sort of be curious about how can I support you so we can still leverage all your years of competence and experience and fantastic work in the organization, but we need to support you to get to a high-level capacity you can hold the complexity of the new role we've given you.
Andrew Cohn: And so, what I'm hearing, a couple of things. First, to me, I would— I know words, my words, the words matter here. I don't know that it's harsh feedback, but it's certainly critical feedback.
Fredrik Lyhagen:
Yeah, critical. For sure.
And what you're talking about in terms of how you invite that conversation about the feedback, to me, it's all work. I'm coming back to humility and curiosity because as you're engaging and asking those questions, it's all about curiosity and humility. What else can I learn? Tell me your point of view. What might there be? And it's not backing off. It's not discounting the feedback. It's yes, and this is what the feedback is. The feedback is real. Feedback's not made up. It's not somebody had a bad day and they gave this feedback. The feedback is real. And let's bring humility and curiosity into this conversation.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And then if we can engage in conversation where I, or together, we unpack what happened from your perspective and how you made sense of it, then I can get a feeling for how you make sense of the world, which makes me in a better position to support you.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, right. And that's what I'm going for. I'm going for, I want to be in the best position to support you.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And I just, I feel like to circle back, then I'm thinking to myself, and what's the spiritual dimension to this? If I were to use this word temporarily. And the spiritual dimension to this is the capacity to hold that tension, right? Between the feedback, the message to be delivered, the information, the data, and the compassion, The curiosity, the humility, the bigger picture here, not just sort of the left brain, deliver the data form of management.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Yeah, exactly. And also not then taking your response as an attack on me, being compassionate to understand that what I'm— the feedback I'm delivering will have caused an emotional reaction with you, possibly. And then when you say something back, I can hold that with compassion. Oh, I understand that this is frustrating for you, and I notice a sense of anger in your voice when you respond to that. So that's interesting. What is it about this that is threatening to you? Or what is the story you connect to this? I'm curious. Let's drill deeper.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful. No, it's a beautiful demonstration of leadership and kindness and compassion. And yeah, and these are conversations— I mean, we've all seen these are conversations that need to happen. And the question, as you said, is, do we have the capacity? Are we operating— in what stage of adult development are we behaving? And do we have the capacity to have these types of conversations? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite an invitation. I appreciate this conversation and the examples and the connecting back. And again, you know, you have this delightful practicality about how you communicate about this, and I really appreciate it. It's interesting because you used the word woo-woo at the beginning of the conversation, and there's nothing remotely— I mean, I have a mixed relationship with this word woo-woo, but there's nothing remotely woo-woo or out there or airy fairy about anything you're talking about here. It's highly, highly practical and grounded.
Fredrik Lyhagen: And at the same time, I've arrived to this view. 20 years ago, I thought it was quite woo-woo and not connected to leadership. that says something about my maturity and my sort of development of consciousness/capacity, because now I can hold that and I can see how it can benefit both myself and the people around me.
Andrew Cohn: Well, the next time we speak, I'd love to hear more of your personal story, because I'd be curious to know what experiences you had that may have led you to that. And I'm happy to share mine as well, of course. And this feels like a nice place to wrap this. And again, I appreciate the blend of experience and personal awareness and personal knowledge and This is entirely consistent. So I would just throw this compliment to you that I very much appreciate the way that you bring your personal groundedness and personal experience into some very challenging, tough, important organizational conversations. And thank you for that work. And thank you for sharing this wisdom.
Fredrik Lyhagen: Thank you, Andrew. It's been a pleasure. Looking forward to next time.
Andrew Cohn: To be continued. Thank you for listening to Spirituality in Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, please subscribe to the show. Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. You can go to the site spiritualityinleadership.com or your preferred podcast platform to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of yourself. Thank you.