Money Is an Emotion: The 80% of Wealth Management Nobody Talks About, with Gillian Stovel Rivers
Why do we treat money like it’s just a number when it’s actually one of the most powerful emotions we experience? In this episode, we explore how true leadership in wealth management isn’t about managing billions, but about helping people live their best lives.
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn welcomes Gillian Stovel Rivers, a senior wealth management advisor based in Toronto. Drawing on her unique background as a former performing artist and a self-described highly sensitive person, Gillian brings a deeply human, person-centered approach to the traditionally technical world of finance.
Gillian shares how she went from a career in theater to wealth management, realizing that her training in understanding human emotion and communication was the perfect preparation for a profession where feelings and money are inextricably linked. She explains her philosophy that the technical aspects of finance, including taxes, investments, and returns, are only "20% of the game," while the other 80% is about understanding what the money is for and the life it’s meant to support.
The conversation explores Gillian’s Flourish Framework, a holistic model based on the Harvard Study of Adult Development. It combines the five key factors for a long, healthy life, including positive social connection, meaning and purpose, physical and mental health, autonomy, and growth, with four forms of wealth: time, energy, money, and attention. This framework helps her guide clients to see money not as an end in itself, but as a tool to build a life of fulfillment and connection.
This episode is for any leader who wants to understand how to build trust by meeting people where they are, how to demystify complex topics to empower others, and why the most effective leadership often comes from focusing on what truly makes us human.
Tune in to discover how compassion, artistry, and a focus on purpose can transform the way we think about wealth and leadership.
Key Takeaways
Spirituality in leadership can look like person-centered service that refuses the status quo.
Money is not just currency; it’s an emotion with a physical representation. Ignoring feelings misses 80% of the work.
Effective leaders translate complex language into the language of the people they serve.
The technical side of wealth matters, but it exists to support meaning, purpose, and connection.
The Flourish Framework combines five pillars of well-being with four forms of wealth: time, energy, money, attention.
Positive social connection is the #1 factor in long-term health and fulfillment.
A powerful “magic question” for deeper conversations about money is: “Tell me about your family.”
You can have a lot of money and still feel very, very empty.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Money as an emotion and the “other 80%”
[00:36] Introduction to Gillian Stovel Rivers
[04:37] Spirituality, leadership, and person-centered wealth management
[06:54] From figure skating and theater to financial advising
[08:54] Highly sensitive person as a professional superpower
[15:44] Speaking the client’s language instead of industry jargon
[22:31] Fear-based vs. values-based financial decisions
[26:59] How to open deeper conversations with clients
[33:21] Painting the future with clients
[40:21] The Flourish Framework and Harvard study
[45:44] Where to find Gillian
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Gillian Stovel Rivers
Website: https://flourishfamilywealth.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillian-stovel-rivers/
The Flourish Feed Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-flourish-feed-podcast/id1840614313
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
Gillian Stovel Rivers: And you could reach a point of having a lot of money and still feel very, very empty. Money is one of those topics. It is almost not a currency. It's an emotion, but it is an emotion that we have a physical representation for. So much of money does come down to feelings. And so much of the work that I do with clients, if you deny that part, you're missing 80% of the game. If we were really good at compounding returns based on logic, everyone would be rich, but we're not. That's not how we're built. Humans are not built that way. You have to find a way around the brain when it comes to money and resources.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and/or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership Podcast. And in this episode, I'm very pleased to speak with Gillian Stovel Rivers. Gillian is a senior wealth management advisor in Toronto, and she advises clients and families with respect to managing wealth, growing wealth. That's sort of a traditional role that she's in, but she does it in a very untraditional way. She does it in terms of, as she describes, helping her clients live their best life, to be their highest and best self, to discover the meaning behind the money and what they want to do with it. not just numbers, but as she said, the other 80%. She applies what she has developed called the Flourish Framework based upon the Harvard Longitudinal Health Study, which began in 1938 about the factors of longevity and leading a fulfilled life. And she discusses that in our conversation. She's a fascinating, remarkable, just somebody I enjoyed listening to how she describes the world and especially connecting something as technical and tactical, uh, as money and managing wealth and investments with meaning and purpose, which of course has been a recurring theme on this podcast. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Gillian Stovel Rivers, coming to us from Eastern Canada. You could tell us exactly where if you choose. Um, and we've had a number of proud Canadians on this podcast, and I, I, I, as you know, I have a personal connection to your fine country and actually soon with your fine city because my son is on his way moving to Toronto.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Oh, fantastic.
Andrew Cohn: So something to be talked about. But so Gillian is a new, relatively new contact of mine. She is a senior wealth advisor and has been in the wealth management and advising space for longer than her own life and also has some fascinating personal athletic pursuits that she can share about. And I've already said something about her background in my introduction to the podcast. But I really have been looking forward to this conversation, and welcome. Welcome to you.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Likewise. Thank you very much for having me. Great to be here.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, it's a pleasure. So this podcast is about the intersection of spirituality, very broadly defined, or perhaps not defined at all, and leadership, also very broadly defined, but in terms of what works in terms of bringing the best parts of ourselves to our work or other areas of our leadership. And also very, very broadly defined. And because I don't define things, people interpret these kind of terms in their own way, which I find to be invigorating and inspiring and expansive for me.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Hmm.
Andrew Cohn: So for you, because you're here and it's not because of the massive cash payment that you're receiving as a result of being on the podcast— so actually, you and I may have different views of what massive cash payment is given the work that you do. But, um, so what draws you to this topic of the intersection of what could be defined as spiritual and leadership?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: That's a great question because I think every iteration of myself and my work tries to answer it over and over again in a, in an, in a refined way, in a refined way as compared to last time. I think I'm iteratively always developing, sometimes obsessively, a new framework or a new way of relating to people that I serve. And I think for me, if I were to try and define the purpose of that leadership, it is to help them live at their best self or to help them live at their highest and best use, if you want to put it in economics terms, or their best self if you want to put it into a more of a humanistic kind of term. So, I think the intersection of spirituality and leadership is fascinating for me because I wouldn't necessarily call what I do in wealth management spiritual, but I would call it person-centered and family-centered and very much refusing status quo definition of client-advisor relationship. I'm often trying to push outside of that, maybe as a way of reclaiming some of my artistic past, or maybe as a way of trying to expand what wealth management really can be about, that it's not just about the money, it's about all of these wonderful things in life that money can help with, that can give you optionality for.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Wow.
Andrew Cohn: Well, you've just strewn out a lot of lovely marbles and we can pick up and run with a number of them. One of them is— so let me give you 2 things and you can choose which one you might want to bite on first. One is you talked about your artistic past or creative past.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Creative past, both. You could use either word.
Andrew Cohn: Creative past. And I'm curious to know how that informs this notion of client service and perhaps therefore something broader that might be somebody might call spiritual. And the other piece is the way you talk about serving your clients. So I feel compelled to ask you, what does service mean to you?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Okay, well, let's start with the creative past. Originally, the very, very beginning of the origin story, competitive athlete. So started in competitive figure skating, but it's figure skating, which is partially technical and very much artistic as well. And when I decided I was, kind of coming to the end of that career around the age of 13, 14, 15, 16, I actually didn't tap out till 16. I had an art teacher in middle school who suggested to my parents that I should audition for a performing arts high school that was just opening up near our home. It was a little bit of a drive away, but it was close enough that it could be commuted to. And so I auditioned for visual arts. I attended high school as a visual arts major, but while I was there, I fell in love with a lot of the other disciplines as well, and then moved over to towards the performing arts, specifically in theater, which is what I did my undergrad in and what I also did my master's in and what I pursued the first maybe 6, 7 years of my postgraduate career in. And I only mentioned that whole backstory because I think it gave me such an appreciation for communication and for the very nuanced semiotics, if you will, of the way that people give you information about what's going on inside of them. It also gave me a very thorough background in understanding my own nature as a highly sensitive person.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Which I will say I've known from the beginning, like even before the beginning. I was someone who would turn red at the smallest thing, who could feel the feelings of other people in the room. And as a young person, that's a lot to get used to and it's a lot to carry and it's a lot to work with. But as somebody who learned how, how to quantify it or learned how to manage it and learned how it was a superpower, I think this gets to your second question.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: It allowed me to really understand how to serve people by having a very direct line to what I was perceiving of their situation, of what they were feeling or what they were thinking or what they were going through. And money is one of those topics that definitely is felt. And it is, it is, it is, it is almost not a currency. It's a, it's a, it's an emotion, but it is an emotion that we have a physical representation for. But so much of money does come down to feelings. And so much of the work that I do with clients, if you deny that part, you're missing 80% of the game. You're really only talking about the surface value of things. And I'm really much more interested in helping understand what motivates people so that they can motivate themselves. Does that give you some background?
Andrew Cohn: No, yeah, absolutely. It's— but I— so what I'm hearing is that, like, as you said, it's that your sensitivity is a superpower. Your sensitivity was, at least for that period of your life, really understanding your clients so that you can perhaps follow their lead. I'm putting words in your mouth, but really understanding their priorities, their values.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: I think so. And, and when you go through any kind of artistic training or any kind of training in general, you're given a way to codify and turn what you're doing into a technique that you can then practice and you can get better at. And that was extremely valuable as it relates to the theater training, the understanding of dramatic text, the understanding of how to direct a scene that represented true human emotion or exchange of ideas between people. When you get an opportunity to have a laboratory at any point in your life study the way that human interaction really works and the way that, how information is exchanged. And then you get to bring it into a workplace situation such as wealth management where you're talking to families about history and about sometimes drama. And sometimes it comes down to drama around money or sometimes it's about bigger things or it's about massive life transitions like losing a spouse or having a career change thrown at you. I think that that training gave me a way to codify what was a felt experience in me as a highly sensitive person and turn it into a repeatable and iterative skill set, if you will.
Andrew Cohn: And perhaps as a wave extension, and perhaps something that you can train others to do if perhaps they didn't have that background that you had. I wonder if as you train people, you've been in this space for a while, a while. Not that you're old, but you've been in this space for a while. So I wonder, as you train people, I wonder if, if your own— that codification comes through and as to how you develop people. I wonder about that.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: It's interesting. I mean, the people that I have had, uh, and I wouldn't even— I wouldn't even say that I've necessarily trained people. I've definitely had junior associates. I've had people that I work with. I am, um, I, I won't say I'm the worst teacher, but I'm not the best teacher. I'm absolutely somebody who, even my kids will tell you, this if they have become aware of it. I'm not somebody who directly gives instruction. I'm somebody who lives by example and teaches by example. And so if what you are wanting is what it is that I'm achieving, then you might pay attention to that and you might say, how does she do that? And then you might curiously try to pay attention to what are the cues of what the skills are and how they were honed. But I think as far as somebody, a woman in my business, which is also unique, this is definitely something that has resonated with other female advisors that I have coached and that I have worked with, that the ability to serve and lead in a way that is a little bit outside the traditional definition of wealth management is attractive to some. And they do pay attention and they do imitate or synchronize with some of those ideas, and that's pretty cool. It's definitely not traditional, but it's, it's very empowering.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and it's apparently effective. You're very successful, so it's not traditional, but it's better.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Well, it's, it's interesting. It, it's, it is. And I would also challenge the question of successful because I think to somebody who does work in this, in this surface definition of wealth management, which is to create a lot of money, be very tax efficient, pass it down the generations with as little tax as possible. I would call that 20% of the game in my world because the other 80% is really having a solid relationship with the money and all the things that it was meant to do in your life. I would say that they might look at me and question whether this is successful because my objective is not to manage billions. The objective for a lot of advisors is to manage billions. That's the definition of success. To me, that is the farthest thing from my mind. I mean, I definitely want to help my clients make money. I do that very well. I have a solid process and discipline for making that happen. But it's not the singular original focus of the work. The singular original focus of the work is my definition of success, which is helping people live at their fullest, helping people get the most out of what they define as the best life that they want to live.
Andrew Cohn: Wow. So a lot there. I'm pausing for a second to let it soak in a little bit. So at first, I just— to draw a quick parallel, I think in my world in leadership development over the last 30 years, I sometimes sometimes hear leaders talk about the way you talk about making money as the sole objective. They talk about, we've got to do that in order to stay in business and keep the lights on and satisfy shareholders, etc., but it is certainly not the whole game.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Right.
Andrew Cohn: Um, and I, I can imagine just having a little bit of experience in the wealth management space, um, what that means. But so when you speak with people and you're talking about the why it matters. Again, some— I maybe I'm putting words in your mouth about why it matters and what is the other 80% in terms of meaning, in terms of value. And that's really— and I'm also hearing for you, that's the juicy part, right? You're not a— you're not an invest— you're not primarily an investor, you're primarily a counselor. Does that fit?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Eh, I don't know if counselor is the right label. I mean, at the same time At the same time as, as I place a ton of value and emphasis and life energy on the 80%, there is no question the reason why people show up at my door is for the 20%. But oftentimes they have shown up at my door because someone else in the pursuit of trying to get them that 20% confused them, let them down, made them feel stupid. made it so that they didn't understand what was happening or why. And that cognitive disconnect of taking, you know, asking a client to take action and, and the client not necessarily knowing what that action is for or about is the reason why I think our industry is so overregulated because there isn't a great understanding. And, and it also is a reason why we might have such historically low levels of financial literacy. So I would say that— I'll give you an example. A client that I had met with yesterday, husband and wife, both professionals, and I meet with them on Teams because they live a little bit of a distance from me. But they're often, as most people are, in separate rooms in the house. Actually, he might have even been at the office and she was in her office at the house. And towards the end of the meeting, she said, you know, I just wanted to say thank you again because It took my husband 20 years to get me to sit in the room with the advisor because all the other advisors we've ever met with just made me feel stupid and small, and they used language that I didn't understand. You make everything make sense. Well, Andrew, the way that I make everything make sense is that I am using the language that they live in. I'm not using the language of the textbooks of where I work. And I think that's an essential part of performance theory. It's an essential part of relating to others. It's an essential part of synchrony, is to learn the language of the person that you're serving and use it to help them so that you become a translator of the 20% in delivering a result that allows them to feel 100%. Does that make sense?
Andrew Cohn: No, it's beautiful. To be honest with you, when I've spoken with sales trainers whom I know, they would say the same thing.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Now they may be focused really on that 20%, the revenue part. Sure, that 20% into 33% or something. But yes, absolutely. But it's— yeah, it's— well, it's speaking a certain language. I— yeah. So what I'm hearing is how you, how you approach your work, how you approach these interactions, how it's different with you, right? When they come to you, just as this woman said to you yesterday, it's different.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah. Well, and even again last evening, I received a note out of the blue for somebody who wants to meet with me as a prospect. And I receive these notes and I, and I feel— I used to, I used to misinterpret them as, oh my gosh, another person who needs bailing out because they sound so down and negative about reaching out to an advisor. But I realized that the reason why they sound so down and out and so depersonalized in these notes when they reach out for help is because they don't know what's coming.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: They don't know that the person on the other end is going to make an effort to understand their language in a way that allows them to feel smart instead of what I think traditionally happens is— I'm not just going to blame advisors. I'm going to say any professional loves to look smart. And oftentimes the way they look smart is making the other people feel dependent or needy of, or needing of their advice so much so. And the way that they do that is baffling them. And I think that that's an interesting dynamic that you probably can run with that in a business model for a long time to baffle people with a lot of terminology and a lot of sexy lingo and a lot of cool concepts that really make sense in your mind. But you live in this space 24/7. These people don't live in wealth management 24/7. So when I receive a note from a prospect like I did last night that says, we really need somebody else to help us with our investments and finances, that's the language they have right now. But my goal in meeting with them and working with somebody like that is to help them to see it in a language that's a little bit more exciting and a little bit more personal because investments and finances, that they are neither of those things.
Andrew Cohn: Well, traditionally, right, traditionally that's true, but you're saying as a practical matter they absolutely need to be those things. They need to be. My understanding is— talk about demystifying things, etc.— my understanding is that more couples get divorced over money issues than over sex issues or over kids issues or things like that. It's huge.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: It's true.
Andrew Cohn: And it's been thought to It, as I was taught, which is what resonates with me, is it's because of what money means, right? You know, if a man doesn't feel he's making enough money, what does that mean?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Right.
Andrew Cohn: Right. For example.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: There's these scripts, these scripts that have been passed down, whether you're male or female. And for men, it might be a status thing about making a certain amount or making more than the other person. And for a woman, it means you were never part of those conversations. You don't talk about money. You don't worry about those things. Somebody else does that for you. And these are scripts that we work very hard to help unpack and then resort and then build on because we can't ignore them, but we can build on them. But the other thing that becomes possible when you demystify things and you, you use language besides the words like investments and finances, and you put other language around it that feels owned is that that the brain responds to challenge differently. The brain responds to challenge when it's confusing or it's jumbly, uh, or it's, or it's baffling in a way that is fear-based.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Instead, if we can approach investments and finances through the channel of goals and motivation and values and things that matter to you, now we're operating in a different part of the brain that makes way better decisions for long-term planning and makes way better decisions for general body health and neurochemistry.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: So to pull the conversation away from confusing, fear-based, scarcity-based, I don't understand this, this taps into a pain point or a wound that goes back to when I was 7, you know, to get away from that, we have to build the rest of the garden. We have to build the other 80%. We have to have the conversations that start to create some language about living at your best, about what the money's for, about all of the optionality and time and energy that money can buy back for you. And what does that look like for you? Okay, now you're motivated. Now do you understand why investing's important? Oh, okay.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And I'm hearing too, so you talked about when you can activate that other channel, then one can make better decisions, right? But the other piece is that if you're speaking with me and helping me as a wealth management advisor, I'm also kind of even just engaging in the conversation differently when you've activated that other dimension because it's not fear-based. So there's the technical, tactical, let's make a decision, we need to make some decisions. There are some of this that's about the numbers.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: But then my willingness and my openness and my— I, I'm not going to be defensive because you're— I don't feel like you're trying to use technical language with me or perhaps hold me small or something like that. Yeah, I'm just going to lean in a little bit more to whatever it is that you're sharing with me, which is helping me activate that other 80%.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: It is. And if we were really good at compounding returns based on logic everyone would be rich, but we're not, right? We're not. That's not how we're built. Humans are not built that way. You have to find a way around the brain when it comes to money and resources, because the way that our brains evolved was in scarcity. So we respond really well to scarcity. We're exceptionally good at going to the mats, right? We're exceptionally good at performing when the chips are down. We're not so comfortable with abundance. We're not very good at knowing what to do with stuff. And so if you can attach the stuff that you have to the things that mean something to you, and you can create a structure around that meaning, then you can, you can create multi-generational wealth. You can create a life for yourself and your offspring and their offspring where they have options that your parents and grandparents didn't. And that's, I think, a really valid reason for wealth management in addition to probably using some of that wealth for greater things in society. So philanthropy, making change at scale, having a social impact in areas that you really care about. Those are whole other motivational mechanisms that some people eventually get to explore because they realize that they feel they have enough. But not everybody needs to get there. Not everybody wants to get there. But there's lots of different options you can take the conversation. But I still hold true to the fact that if we were all robotically good at simply math and compounding in our brains, then everyone would be rich. And the reason why we're not is because you're right, money is feelings. Money is complicated.
Andrew Cohn: So what if I could, It's so funny, we're talking about the tactical stuff and then the deeper stuff, but I want to ask you a tactical question for this conversation.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Cohn: And that is, so what do you do to shift the conversation away from— I imagine at least initially for people who don't know you very well, perhaps it's the first conversation or something, and they're expecting you to ask, you know, show me the numbers. You know, you equal your spreadsheet, show me the numbers. And of course it's not that, but tell me what you do to begin to get below that, because perhaps in the first conversation you're not discussing Harvard longitudinal studies with people.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: No, that would throw people off. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: That would throw people off. But so what do you do, especially for people who, you know, respectfully may not be necessarily inclined to show you or to be self-revealing with you. Yeah, they're here to talk about money, right? Yeah. But you know that there's much more. How do you open that up? How do you invite people into that deeper space?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: You know, I've never unpacked this, I don't think, out loud, but there are a couple of definite steps in that process. Um, I will say first of all that the reason why I've created the Flourish Feed and the Flourish Feed podcast was to build a very clear, big digital footprint for myself that revealed who I was and what I talk about so that people almost know me before they meet me, that there was an opportunity.
Andrew Cohn: They're more ready to come and talk about it.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah. And, and in fact, it will repel the people that don't want to talk about that, and it will attract the people that do. So that was a very intentional move on my part, uh, from a, from a, from a storytelling perspective and a brand perspective. Um, but even still, people will appear and they won't necessarily know the full footprint. And the way that I have always approached that, because this is not new, I've been living and working this way with clients for decades, is that I will start with, I will start in the realm of the 20%. I will start in the realm, but I don't start ever, ever, ever with a discussion about investments. We always, always, always start with a picture of the now to age 100. And the picture of a Now to Age 100 is over the years, it's been a number of different solutions, but it's with a piece of wealth planning software. And it allows me to get to know the person. It allows me to interactively put it up on the screen, interview them right there in the room or on the Teams call. And I build their life in numbers and pictures right in front of them. And that not only gives them an opportunity to tell me about themselves, but it also gives me an opportunity to demonstrate that I have the technical chops to be able to ask the questions related to the other 80%, because I know that that 80% is going to drive how quickly and how efficiently we can achieve the goals to make that 100-year plan work. Does that make sense?
Andrew Cohn: Right, it does, but if they don't believe that you're technically sharp enough or that you're experienced or that— I mean, it's sort of like, if I could I'm a— forgive me, I'm the woes of a consultant— an iceberg model. It's like the tip of the iceberg is the 20%, and it's the number. You have to be more than the number, but that's where the number lives.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And, and I think that's why, to your earlier point, that's why consultants— I mean, I grew up, my first career I was a lawyer. Lawyers would never use legal language to try to intimidate their clients or— Oh gosh, no. Justify, justify where they're charging these rates or whatever it is. But it's like, but you do need to start there. You do need to demonstrate, hey, I belong here, I can speak this language, and we know that this language belongs in this conversation, this technical, detailed finance language, language which I, as a lawyer, I don't necessarily speak, but I know what it sounds like, I think. But my point is like, you got to lead with that, right? So they know you're credible.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: You do.
Andrew Cohn: But then the pivoting out of it. So the software helps you get that information, the branding, the identity, the podcast, the Flourish Feed, etc., which we will put in the show notes for people.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: That'd be great.
Andrew Cohn: And please say more about that as you like, but it lets people know, okay, this one's a little different. As you said, there aren't very— as you said, it's rare to have a woman in your role. That was your language. So that's another difference. But it's not just a woman, it's a woman who's in this space and who's in this space solidly.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: And doing it in a unique way. I would say that when I first came into this industry, there were even fewer women. There's still— we're working on it, but we still have some room to move to get to the full 50% quota, if you will, of wealth managers being women. But the cool thing about starting technically at the top of the iceberg with the wealth planning software is that you've then kind of given opportunities to show glimmers of all these other flourishing topics, all these topics related to how do you spend your money on health? How are we working on purpose? Even if we were to stop working in 10 years when you retire, let's talk a little bit about what the money's gonna be needed or what monies are gonna be needed to give you fulfillment after that. It can't all be safaris and toss cushions, as I like to say, right? There's probably only enough juice in the orange to go on maybe 1 or 2 safaris. And how many toss cushions can you possibly get excited about buying week after week at HomeSense, right? So we have to have another reason for being, and we need to figure out what the money is needed, what money is needed to make that happen. But then once you finish the wealth planning conversation, that naturally drops you at a place where you then have to say, all right, this is the target number as you set, right? If we're going to reach that target number, well, here's the suite of investment options that are going to help us get there. So then you can have a discussion about the suite of investment options. But all along the way, you get opportunities to again show the glimmers of all of these other flourish topics so that by the time it's— it comes time to talk about the 80% stuff, we've built so much trust on the fundamental chassis of wealth management. that now you're excited to do the 80% stuff. It doesn't feel like somebody's asking you questions that are too hard or too deep or too self-reflective because you've walked there together.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: And you've gone through, you've gone through a technical space that maybe other people who tried to take you through that space made you feel stupid through. But instead we did it in a really discursive, exploratory way that It's all about you and not about the product, not about the investment.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and as you talked about, I think as you were building upon describing the use of software, that through that you can show people the words and pictures of their life or what that life will be perhaps, or whatever that language was. And so that's the journey with them. That's bringing it to life. And what I'm hearing though is that that— or perhaps I'm projecting some of my own values, help me out here— is that through that journey, especially if you're using that sensitivity superpower, you have a sense of like, what do I want this walk to be?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Hmm.
Andrew Cohn: You know, where am I walking? What do I want it to feel like? Who's going to be with me? You know, things like that. And that sensitivity allows you to bring some— if, well, if we'll use the metaphor of like you're painting a picture for or painting a picture with them perhaps.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yes, with.
Andrew Cohn: Is what are the colors that are coming into this picture other than black and white?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: 100%. And if there's something that the human brain is not terribly good at, it's seeing much further in the future than next month. So when you're talking about a wealth plan for somebody to get them from now to age 100 or 110, or, you know, for our kids' generation, it could be 120, it's really hard to see that far. Like, you do need to practice those conversations and have a relationship with somebody for years to get good at seeing the future with them and painting the future with them. But every single time you have an interaction with them and every single time you send them a newsletter or every single time you drop them a note, you have that opportunity. to stretch them a little further so that they can see that future, so that they feel optimistic about that future. And that I think is a great role that wealth planning plays, is to give people comfort and security about the future. But it still tends to be historically anyway, a very one-prong approach to what that security is, which is all about money. I think the real magic or gift is when you can stretch out what that future looks like by helping people talk about it in terms that is not just the money, but what the money's for. Now they have a vision of where they're going, which makes leaving things behind a little easier. So, you know, when a client has their child leave to go to university or moves out of the house and now they're empty nesters, it's really nice to be that person that's there that's already helped them paint the picture of what's next or helps them paint the picture of what's next. Because there's definitely a role. Yeah, there's definitely a role for mourning those shifts and those transitions, but there's also a really great opportunity to help people constantly reinvent.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, well, right. So there's a mourning as in grieving at that transition, but there's also a morning and it's a new day.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: And well, that's true too. Yes, 2 kinds of mourning/morning.
Andrew Cohn: Absolutely beautiful. So, so how do you, how do you begin? How do you open the door? I often talk in this podcast about how do you open up these inclusive, engaging conversations that invite meaning and reflection and purpose, which not only supports higher levels of engagement and leaning in, etc., but also gets better results. whether it's in the business results section or here, just how am I making better decisions around wealth generally defined. So how do you open up that conversation about meaning? Maybe you use certain words and maybe you modify that wealth software thing that you bought off the shelf but you change some of the language.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Or maybe you ask a few things in a supplemental profile thing, or maybe— and it may not be in the first conversation because like you said, you want to meet them at a certain level, demonstrate, okay, I got the chops here, you can trust me, and now we can go a little deeper. So how do you go below the surface of that iceberg? And I'm not— you could get very tactical with me, or it could just be the types of things that you might address, or the types of qualities you might bring into the conversation. What do you think?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah, there's definitely a, a readiness feeling for a new client that you You have to just feel. I wish that there was a litmus test for it, but it really is a feeling of, they kind of just relax. Like there's like literally a physical relax that you can tell in their language and in their body language that they have crossed over to a place where they're ready for more. Like they've, they understand they're not at capacity. They have created a little more slack because oftentimes the early relationship with a new advisor, or in my case with a new client, there it can be quite an educational process. So then I would say there is, there is that onboarding of a new person where the technical chops are very helpful to build the trust, and then there needs to be a settling back of content so that they feel they have mastery of what they've learned so far, and then we can start to move the needle a little bit. And the way that we move the needle with an existing client, for example, it used to be before we had fancy software things to do. It was about getting the right opening question when you first sit down with somebody. And for a new client, oftentimes that great first question was, you know, I don't just want to talk about the money today. I really want to talk about what the money is for. Tell me about your family.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: 90, if not more, percent of people will want to talk about their family, and that conversation will already give you so many clues and cues about what matters and what the money is for at a very personal level for that person. For an existing client, and I'll give you— I will use a software example, we've evolved that set of questions that you might open with, and we now send it as a pre-meeting survey to ask them 5 very simple questions so that we get a little bit of a temperature check on the things that they're feeling confident about, the things that they're feeling concerned about, and where in their Flourish framework is strained right now. Where could we invest a little bit more time and attention and money to give them that opportunity to blossom a little more? So I think magic questions, you've said that before, like questions subvert mindsets, but magic questions, if you can practice them. And that's the other thing is you got to experiment. You got to find your own magic questions. Magic questions when it comes to money are the ones that allow an immediate sharing without worry about jargon or technical language, and they almost always have something to do with your family.
Andrew Cohn: Well, family. Geez, we need more time.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah, yeah. Well, we don't have to unpack that. I'm not a family person. I mean, I am a family person. I'm not a family advisor, but, um, but I oftentimes— I feel like sometimes I am. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Well, your work is providing for families in a very, very critical way. Um, so, but, but I, I feel like I have to just, in, in the, in the remaining time that we have, you talked a couple of times about the Flourish Framework. And that is a very special thing to you, and it's a special thing, period. So could you please open that up a little bit for us?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Yeah, absolutely. So it is the beginning of an evolving iterative algorithm, if you will, that we put together about 18 months ago after reviewing in detail the Harvard Study of Adult Development, which was— is a longitudinal study. It still goes on. It was started in 1938. And the purpose of the study back then with, I think it was 750 men, and now is over 3,000 people, men, women, different races, et cetera, but they review and they cover and they survey both the quantitative and qualitative aspects of a person's life for their entire life in order to track and measure the things that allow for the greatest healthspan. the greatest amount of longevity, but with a high quality of health as well. And what the Flourish Framework is based on is that the Harvard study brought it down to the, you know, the top 5 reasons or qualifiers of somebody who enjoys a long and flourishing healthspan, the first of which is positive social connection. That's the very most important thing that all of these people in the longitudinal study since 1938 had in common was feeling connected to people besides themselves, positive social connection. So now you look at that through the lens of wealth management or through investing or through planning your life to 100 or 120. We now know that's got to be a part of every person's plan is how are they spending their money in order to stay connected. It's very easy to stay connected when you're earning money because you go to work, you're usually working with other people. But in order to remain connected after a life of work, we need to be mindful about positive social connection in our budgeting, right? Not just our money budgeting, but also our time and energy budgeting. The second feature in the Flourish Framework after positive social connections is meaning and purpose. Icky guy. A reason to get up in the morning. We have that through our working life. Most of us do. Sometimes it's positive if we're very lucky. But when our working life shifts to a life after work, we've got to redefine what that purpose is. And it can't just be— I mean, nothing wrong with waking up and feeding the dog and walking the dog, but that's a lot of pressure on the dog. So we need to have conversations in those wealth plans about what are we going to do with our time and how do we want to invest some of our resources to make sure that we feel connected to other people and maybe we have a purpose with that connection as well. The third is physical and mental health. Definitely an easy place that you could be spending more money in. The average spend on preventative health in North America is 2.5% of your budget. That's not very much. Think about how much you actually spend on the things that are working against your health, like alcohol or like anything that is— I'm not saying that alcohol is bad, but I mean, in moderation, everything is great. But we kind of probably, most of us afford to spend a little bit more our budget and our money on our health. The third of— pardon me, the fourth is autonomy and agency, and the fifth is achievement and growth. So, those 5 factors come from the Harvard study, and they form a component of the Flourish Framework, the other component being the 4 forms of wealth. So, time, energy, money, and attention. And so, for the last couple of years, we have revolved our conversations in our wealth planning things around the intersection of those 5 factors and those 4 forms of wealth in order to help people start conversing in those terms, right? I feel low on energy. Why do I feel low on energy? It's because this is taking too much of me. How much does it cost to get that outsourced? Okay, maybe that's a good use of our money to buy back some of that energy. And that's allowing people to feel a little bit more in control of all of their forms of wealth. And so now we're developing this framework and pushing it into a larger data set, um, and, and hopefully I'll be back sometime in the future to tell you more about that.
Andrew Cohn: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot there, and thank you, and thank you for that concise summary. Yeah, but what's— so essentially what I'm hearing is your, your work is, and your purpose through your work, is about helping people live their best lives by by focusing on what has meaning and what helps them live a fulfilled life. And wealth supports that, but wealth doesn't make it happen. There's plenty of wealthy people who are miserable.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: That's it. That is 100% true.
Andrew Cohn: Their time and whatever, right?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: So yeah, and you could reach a point of having a lot of money and still feel very, very empty.
Andrew Cohn: Well, not if you work with you.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: No, exactly. And that is the goal, is that feeling of fulfillment that the last day that you ever live on Earth was your best day and that everything that we did up to that point was pointing to that. And that is the definition of the purpose, I think, for me.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Well, this would be a great place to pause just to let that soak in. If, if people wanna learn more about you, where do they go?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Perfect.
Andrew Cohn: Where do they go?
Gillian Stovel Rivers: All right, well, on LinkedIn, my name is Gillian Stovel Rivers. On Instagram, I am @GillianStovelofficial. We also have the Flourish Feed podcast, which is broadcast on Apple, Spotify, and on YouTube. So I think my YouTube channel's also Gillian Stovel Official. And we run a website that captures all of the Flourish Feed content. called flourishfamilywealth.com. You can find ways to reach me there. I look forward to hearing from you.
Andrew Cohn: Lovely. And we didn't even get into some of the outside-of-work things that I'm, I'm so interested in, but we'll let the listener hold in suspense with that. Um, thank you so much for your time, for your focus, and thank you for the work that you do in the world.
Gillian Stovel Rivers: Thank you very much for having me. This has been a lovely conversation. I hope you have a great day.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. You too.
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