What if the most powerful leadership tool is simply learning to look for the good in other people? In this episode, we explore how meaning, gratitude, and love can change workplace culture, and why they're good for people and the bottom line.
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn welcomes Dr. Merethe Drønnen, a leadership educator and author from Norway. Merethe holds a PhD in organizational leadership and previously worked as a personnel manager at a maritime coastal administration, where she helped shift the culture of a workforce that was about 90% men. Before that, she traveled the world as an international model. Across every chapter of her life, she has been drawn to the same question: how do we help people find meaning, purpose, and their full potential?
Merethe shares why she believes leaders have enormous influence over whether people thrive, and how practical techniques like gratitude, catching colleagues doing something good, and recognizing character strengths can turn a complaining workplace into a positive one. She explains why lifting up the meaning in every role, from the hospital cleaner to the surgeon, lifts up the whole culture. She also describes how she teaches leaders through experience rather than theory, including a "positive gossip" exercise that lets them feel the impact for themselves.
The conversation also explores love as the root of great leadership, how to talk about it across cultures without necessarily using the word, and why these techniques carry over from the workplace to the family dinner table.
This episode is for any leader who wants to build a workplace where people feel valued, engaged, and connected to something larger than their task list.
Tune in to discover how simple, practical acts of appreciation can create lasting change.
Key Takeaways
Leaders have great influence over whether people thrive at work, and most are eager to learn how.
People feel more engaged and productive when they believe their work has meaning for others.
Gratitude is a trainable practice: searching for the good trains your brain to keep finding it, and after about 30 days it becomes more automatic.
Simple acts, like a personal thank-you note or "catching" a colleague doing something good, are remembered for years.
Every role has meaning, and highlighting it lifts the individual, the team, and the culture.
Love is the underlying value beneath compassionate, authentic, and transformational leadership, even when it isn't called love at work.
Leaders learn best by experiencing these techniques, not just hearing about them.
We are the same person at work and at home, so these skills transfer to families and relationships.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Meaning, purpose, and unlimited potential
[00:53] Introduction to Dr. Merethe Drønnen
[04:10] What draws her to meaning, purpose, and leadership
[07:41] Why meaning belongs on the workplace agenda
[10:48] From international model to leadership scholar
[15:18] Bringing well-being to a male-dominated maritime workplace
[16:44] Why this work resonates globally and supports the bottom line
[22:15] Gratitude, catching people doing good, and signature strengths
[26:23] Finding meaning in every role
[28:38] Love as the foundation of leadership
[31:48] Talking about love across cultures
[35:00] Teaching leaders through experience: character strengths and "positive gossip"
[38:49] The neuroscience of gratitude
[40:48] Techniques that transfer from work to home
[43:27] Where to find Dr. Merethe Drønnen
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Dr. Merethe Drønnen
Website: https://merethedronnen.com/
Website: https://linktr.ee/merethedronnen
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/positivechangeinternational
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: I've always been searching for meaning and purpose, both in my own life and in larger life of other people as well. And I've been doing lots of conferences and speeches about finding your purpose, finding your meaning for individuals. I believe that inside of us all, we have unlimited potential. If you decide that we want to do something and focus about it, put the goals there and the focus there, we can achieve anything because it's all together, actually. Because if leaders want to learn this, because not all leaders have learned this, and when they learn it and they bring it back to their workplaces, it's a win-win. If you're gonna just put it down to one, I would say love, because love is underneath as a value which you carry with you wherever you go, and you show that you care for other people. So that's my mission and my purpose and my contribution to the world.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and/or about individual or team coaching, Leadership workshops or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership Podcast. I'm so pleased to have with me in this episode Dr. Merethe Drønnen from Norway. I ask for your apologies in advance if you're Norwegian and you're hearing me likely mispronouncing her name to some degree. And Marethe is a remarkable resource. She teaches leadership in Norway. She got her PhD in leadership here in the US, previously worked as a personnel manager for the Maritime Coastal Commission in Norway where she worked with an older population, 90% men, trying— not trying to, effectively infusing the culture and changing the workplace culture to one that is more conducive to employee well-being. We talked about many of the things that leaders can do to impact culture, to create a greater sense of purpose among their employees, including ways to practice gratitude. My word, not hers, would be to kind of operationalize gratitude in the workplace and helping employees find meaning and find their purpose at work. Her book is called Positive Leadership, back in 2022. A new book is coming out soon, and she has experience to share and Just a remarkable philosophy. I appreciate her presence on the podcast and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Welcome, Merethe, to the podcast. I'm so grateful to have you with me. I just want to first be clear, Merethe, is that close to accurately pronouncing your name?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes, it's quite accurate. Merethe is the perfect— it's so good. Anyway.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. It's a strange thing to not be able to pronounce a name easily. Right, I'm so used to just being able to— I know that I'm saying it correctly, but alas, in Norway I don't have that much practice. I have to come visit again.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: You should, yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Well, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you with me and with us. I'm sure the people listening are going to be very pleased at what you're sharing, and I'm grateful for the conversations we've had and look forward to hearing about you and your experience and your focus. Thank you.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Thank you for inviting me. Looking forward to the talk.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. So a question that I will often ask at the beginning of these conversations is, what draws you to this topic? What is interesting to you and appealing to you about the intersection of what might be called spiritual and leadership?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Well, first of all, I just want to say that I have a doctorate degree in leadership. So I'm very interested in leadership at large. And also I'm very interested in finding meaning, purpose, also in my own life, for individuals and for the workplace. So being here with you talking about meaning and purpose, which is my definition of spiritual, is very interesting because I love both of the topics. So let's just Let's just go on and talk and see what it's like.
Andrew Cohn: Okay, so now our challenge is how do we do this in a reasonable amount of time? That's the challenge.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: That's the challenge.
Andrew Cohn: But if we need to continue, we certainly can do that. So what was— were these 2 areas of interest for you always, or was it something that became more interesting to you as your career progressed, or even personally, even growing up? Maybe there's a story that you could share about Like, what prompted your interest in this? What drew you to these topics?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, I've always been searching for meaning and purpose, both in my own life and in larger life of other people as well. So that's always been a search for me. And I've been doing lots of conferences and speeches about finding your purpose, finding your meaning for individuals. And when I was working as a personnel manager, this was deepening my interest. I saw at the workplace that people were also working and looking for meaning and purpose, and I saw that their work engagement increased when they could talk about these things which matter for them, among other things. So I started to take my PhD in organizational leadership to dig into this leadership aspect of it. Because leaders, they have the possibility to make people thrive. They have great influence at the workplace. And they, yeah, lots of research is showing this, that where the leader is leading is influencing all the people at the workplace in very many different angles and degrees. So, I also have a personal desire of helping people, see people thrive and get engaged. And yeah, be happy, finding meaning of life. And so I combine all this interest in the workplace. And yeah, that's where I'm at. And I just love to contribute. It's my kind of meaning to contribute to people at the workplace and individuals, you know, with my knowledge and how I can help people thrive. It's my great satisfaction. It's my purpose.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you for sharing that, and I love that. There's a— it's sort of like, to hear you say that, it's almost like it's a very fulfilling type of selfishness, right? That we do this because it's satisfying and fulfilling, and not in a negative way selfish. It's about serving others, it's about supporting others, but we do it because we know that's what we're here to do. Is that a fair way to say that?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, that's a fine way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. Purpose. Purpose. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: So in your experience, what are some ways that leaders can help people find their purpose, talk about their purpose, especially in the workplace where sometimes, well, we don't have time to talk about this. We have work to get done.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah. Well, in my books, I have to just show you, this is my Positive Leadership book with Springer. That's my first book. And then there's another book coming in August with the other Springer. It's international, so it's reaching people all over the globe. And that's very satisfying for me. But in this book, I dig into the subject of how leaders can make their workplaces thrive and make the culture a better culture. So it's a win-win-win for the leaders, for the organizations, and for the people. And I'm digging into a lot of elements and meaning is one of them, you know, but it also, it is about work engagement, it is about relationships, it's about communication, and it is about meaning, you know, it's all these aspects that leaders can put onto, let's say, they put it into, this is what we're going to do, and into the agenda was the word. I'm Norwegian. Sometimes I have to search for words, but to put it into agenda at workplaces so they can make everybody thrive. And it is so doable. In my books, I'm digging into the concrete things that leaders can do to make this happen. But meaning is one of the aspects in it. We know that from large studies that if people feel that what they do at the workplace has meaning for other people, they also feel it's meaningful for themselves, you know, and then they put on the positive gear and they're more productive. And it's so fascinating to see, you know, when we step into the workplace, we are the exact same persons that we are at home because we have our personal human needs for acceptance and for meaning, relationships and good communications. And that is the topics I'm digging into, you know. It's, are we going to behave and act and react as human beings also at the workplace? So it's very important that leaders understand this, that they understand, like I said, the psychology of human beings, how we are motivated, how we are inspired to do work, how are we going to be working collectively together forward. And this is what I love to share knowledge about.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I get that. I can feel your passion on the topic. It's wonderful. So could you go back a little bit and share a little bit about your journey? I know the beginning of your career was perhaps quite different than what you're doing now, but I'd love to hear about your experience, but also what your experience taught you and how it led you to this work. And maybe that's totally— you're sharing your professional experience. Maybe there's something personal as well, if you're willing to share. But could you share a bit about your story and how you came to this place?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Well, like I said, I've been always searching for purpose, and I'm a person who loves to try out new things, you know. And yeah, when I was younger, I was an international model traveling the world, living in New New York, Hamburg, Munich, Düsseldorf, Milan. And that was my kind of passion and searching for purpose and meaning at that time. Yes, and all through my life I divided into different phases because when I tried out something in one area, it leads me to try to dig out something new. But it's always around people, it's always about how to stretch yourself to try to achieve new things. That's my personal thing. I love to learn new things. I love to stretch myself. But it's always including human development in a way, you know. So, and if it's at workplace or if it's in my personal life, and I like to stretch the limits of my mind first of all and then to do something new. Because I believe that inside of us all we have unlimited potential. If we decide that we want to do something and focus about it, put the goals there and the focus there, we can achieve anything. So, in my life I tried modeling, I've been a personal manager, I've been an author, I've been in my own company. And now I feel that I might do something new. But this is because I'm stretching myself because I really believe in the human beings, that we can do and achieve so many things. But we have to work on our limiting mindsets. And then we can do so many things. You just use the same concept in the workplace and in personal lives. And that's what I do when I have speeches to especially young women who don't believe in themselves. I love to talk about dream big. Don't limit yourself. Dream big. Go for it and feel what's inside of you. And I believe that we have passion for the things that we have a purpose and destiny to do in life. And so I love to help people to find their passion for some things and help them to move forward. That really makes me happy. Yeah. To see people use their potential.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. And the way you talk about, if I'm hearing correctly, you talk about people finding their purpose. And I know that, and there have been other guests on this podcast that have talked about, in fact, they're very firm about the fact that you don't create your purpose, you discover it, you find it. It's something that's wired with us and it's our job to find it and discover it and nurture it, but it's there. Is that what you believe as well?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: I'm kind of saying both. I think that the main focus in life, like my main focus, is to help people to thrive, to find their purpose, and it can come in different areas of life. I believe that, like I said, that we have the mental potential to do many things and that we should not lock ourselves into a box and say that this is me and this is me for the rest of my life. You know, ah, that's the most boring thing I could hear actually.
Andrew Cohn: Well, it's very unlike you. Like you said, you love to try new things. That would be, that would be horrible for you. That would be this defined box forever. Oof. That would not work for you.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: So it's kind of both, you know, in a way, but, but the large lines are, I think, it's a purpose, you know, I love to, I love to learn, I love to teach and combined with, I love, I love to see people thrive at workplace or, or elsewhere. This is my purpose, you know, teaching people, helping people, facilitating people and lifting them up so they go out and do their thing. So that's really satisfying.
Andrew Cohn: And when you, when you were, so when you left modeling and you went into the more working corporate, if I could use that word, I'm not sure, with different environments. Did you find that you were working in workplaces that encouraged this type of finding of purpose and meaning, or was it missing and therefore it was up to you to bring that into your work?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: I was lucky. I was working as a personal manager and I could set the agenda and I was doing leadership development and teaching leaders and working for the working climate at work. And at that place, it was a lot of— when I first started there, I was female, 35, 9 of 10 were men, 52. And but what I thought it was—
Andrew Cohn: As you're a younger woman and a model, right? A beautiful younger woman coming into this male-dominated environment. And this was the coastal—
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: The Maritime Coastal Administration is in a region in Norway, yes. But it was very giving to me to see that all these men which are masculine maritime men, that they really enjoyed when we were working, like finding the rules how to cooperate, you know. And that they came to me and they said, oh, this is so good, we need this, we need a way so we can learn how, you know, to speak to each other and how we are cooperating and making this working place a better place. And it really— I was really astonished by that, that they liked it so much, you know.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: And because normally I had been working with women and younger women, you know, because they love these things quite much, you know, about your potential and dreams and all these things. So that was really exciting for me. So I digged more into these areas about the workplace and workplace well-being and what are the elements that contribute to this workplace well-being. You can use many words, you can use flourish, thriving, One of the biggest factors is leadership. I felt I had to learn more about that as learning is one of my greatest areas. I learned about leadership, I took my PhD and I digged into what leaders are doing at the workplace that make both companies increase their bottom line but also at the same time make people thrive and also the leaders as well. I've been teaching leaders for years and years about this, nationally in Norway and also at the universities. One of my books is at the curriculum of leadership education at several universities. I get emails where people love this concept because it's this concept we are talking about, you know, like meaning and spirituality, but also about how we speak to each other, how the communication is, and how we can increase the work engagement. How can leaders inspire and motivate the employees? Because it's all together actually, because if— and leaders want to learn this because not all leaders have learned this, you know, and when they learn it and they love it and they bring it back to their workplaces. You know, it's a win-win. You know, I just, like I said, I was changing tires at my local, what do you call it, changing tires company. And then this manager, he came and said, hey, I know you, I recognize you because I've been reading your book and I'm using these concepts and these tips in my company and they're so good. And that's so nice and makes me so happy when I get positive feedback like that. Yeah, I think this is international. People want this international because people, when they— we can talk about— it's about love, it's about meaning, it's inspiration, motivation, communication, relationships, work engagement. It's all in the same area and it's international. And, you know, and we can lift it up to say that love is a component of it as well. If you love people and love yourself, then you can accomplish a lot of things. Because this is also in talking about spirituality, this is in all religions where doing something good for other people is a good thing and it's international value. that are based in the humans. It's all over the world, so international. So I find that I get emails from Chile, from Singapore, Germany, USA because of my international book and they just so appreciate it and that's very satisfying for me to see that so many people want the real thing and it We're talking about spirituality, meaning in workplace is one of them that people really love to dig into and learn about and make a reality in their companies. And then the results is that their bottom line increases, you know, and people are thriving and they're staying there longer. The sick leave is getting less, the turnover is getting less, you know. So it's just even Even the customers are more satisfied if you work with these areas, you know, and these are the real things which we all as human beings feel are important. So, it's very giving to learn and to teach these areas and to leaders, you know. And one more fun thing that even stock exchange rates on companies that are working with these areas are increasing. So it's a win-win. So we need that.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Well, and the research being done around industrial psychology, organizational psychology, etc., is catching up to some of what you're describing that maybe we already knew but didn't have the numbers, and now we have the numbers. But I'd love to talk about, so what are some specific things that leaders can do? I mean, this is what you talk about, this is what you teach. What are some specific things that leaders can do? And I'm particularly interested in, for example, in the Maritime Coastal Commission where you would have been— you would have thought, I don't think enough of the men are gonna come around to this, they may not, you know, warm to these ideas. But they did. And I'm curious to know, firstly, what are some specific things leaders can do? And then how might— forgive me for asking 2 questions at once. No, no, no. And then how might you overcome— how might they overcome their resistance to trying some of these things?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Well, if you tell the leaders that you're going to help them create workplaces where people are thriving and where people are more positive and motivated if you do these things, then leaders, most leaders are interested in learning that. It's nothing— I'm not gonna test them how good they are, and I'm not after to find the leaders that are not good. I'm after helping leaders, employees, and businesses altogether, and just by teaching them not things, but teaching them techniques that they can do in their everyday life. And just one thing that comes to my mind, Right now we were talking about gratitude. That's one of also the positive psychology things you can do. Just like a leader can— well, you can start, for instance, the morning meetings and you're trying to say something good that happened and you're searching for good. Because if you're searching for good, you are training your brain to be looking at good later. That's a whole new subject. But gratitude, looking for gratitude, what is making you pleased, what is making you happy, and what is good with another person. You can use this in school, you can use it in personal life, you can use it everywhere, you know. But that's the thing you can implement in the workplace. You can like have, this week we're gonna catch somebody doing something good and we're gonna tell them. And we're going to look at their strengths. There's something called also character strengths, which is another subject, but every person has signature strengths, 5 strengths which are their top strengths. And then the colleagues can look at— to catch your colleague finding— look at which strengths they are using in different areas. So in that way you're training your mind to look for the good, which is a positive spiral. You actually only need 5 people at the workplace to change a workplace from complaining and onto more positive. A leader, he could write a note on how good the individual did. For instance, before Christmas, you know, write a personal note. I liked that. Thank you for your work. I liked that you did this and this and this. And you know what? People love it because all people are searching for meaning, purpose, and to feel worthy and valued and appreciated. And people remember it for years. Just small tiny things like this. I've had teachings, seminars for leaders and for employees at workplaces. And one of the assignments is that they should write down good things about their colleagues, you know, and when they say something, or, you know, and then these people, they keep it on the wall of their office for years and years and years and years, and they tell me that they never forget it. Because it's just so simple. You can say it's love, you can say it's compassion, you can say it's gratitude, you can say it's so many things, but it is turning, helping people and workplaces to look at the good things in other people. And this is simple things, but this is how we are created. where we are valued and appreciated. We get motivated and meaning. Like if a workplace is, for instance, yeah, one of the techniques is also that you look for the meaningful parts of your work, you know.
Andrew Cohn: So I just want to check in with you about this. So meaningful parts would mean like, for example, if I'm creating a product for a customer, To understand what's the impact of that product on the customer's life. How does it make their life— so if you could talk about some examples of like what might meaning be. So if I work in the pharmaceutical industry, this is going to help somebody heal. That's a simple example, but what might be some others?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, exactly. Like if you are washing at the hospital, and in the hospital they usually have different levels, you know, the medical doctors are higher in range than those who are washing the floor. But if the company is getting together in smaller groups and you look at what is the meaning, for instance, for this one who is working washing at the hospital, you know, then they're doing a great job because they are helping people to not get sick. The people that are in the hospital that are sick, you're helping them so that to not infect more germs, you know, and just to lift that up in the group of people. So they, because everybody wants to contribute to something good. And when you do that, you can see the people glow, you know, and you can change the whole company culture by doing that.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And so I just, I need to reflect back to you what you just said about when you said you lift that up, meaning when you highlight it. Right? When you lift it up and show it to them. But you're also lifting up the whole culture. You're lifting up my morale and my engagement. It's like, wow, I'm just washing the floors here, but you're telling me how much this matters. And maybe I would have forgotten that because I'm just washing the floors.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Exactly.
Andrew Cohn: And so you're lifting it up to highlight it, but you're also lifting me up and you're lifting up the culture.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes.
Andrew Cohn: That could be a title of your next book if you choose, just lifting it up. Yeah. No, no, no, that's beautiful. Great. So gratitude, finding meaning. Anything else that's a key, key principle for you about leadership behavior that helps create these workplaces of well-being?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, there are actually many key elements, but if you're going to just put it down to one, I would say love, because love is underneath as a value which you carry with you wherever you go, and you show that you care for other people. And it shows up in the way you communicate, in the way you are visible at workplace, in the way you delegate to people. It shows up in everything, you know. And so if you're gonna put it down to one, that would be it. I've read thousands of articles about leadership, you know, since I have my PhD in it, and sometimes they're just changing the words: compassionate leadership, authentic leadership, you know, and it's all these words, and transformational, you know. But it's actually deep down, it comes down to spiritual values of love, you know. So it's a basic value in a person that he carries with him. And some people, of course, have to learn more about this and the effects and also, yeah. But if you just put it into one, that's a strong one. And like I see your lighthouse behind you, you know, I used to have a Facebook cover like that too, because it's so, how do you say, when you see the light is shining out in the world, that's what every person can bring with oneself out and give out to other people. So I just love that illustration because that's what leaders also do, you know, at their workplaces.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, well, and you said this at the beginning of the conversation too, it's like leaders have a impact. It's like there's a shadow that leaders cast, and by shadow I don't mean something dark. I mean there's an impact, and the question is, what kind of impact do you want to have? You're going to have an impact. Do you want to have a positive impact or a negative impact? It's a bit— sometimes we talk about how, you know, our emotions are contagious. What do you want people to catch, right, when you walk into a room? But I'm curious to know, how do you I have so many questions for you because you're bringing up so many wonderful topics. But one is this notion of love, which means so many different things to so many different people, of course, personally, professionally, otherwise. You've worked internationally, and I'm curious to know how different cultures respond to a concept like this, love in the professional world, whether we're calling it that in not calling it that, etc. I don't think the labels are particularly important. What's more important is what are we doing? But different— how do different cultures respond to that? For example, is it different in Norway to even raise up the issue of love in a workplace than it might be in the US? And you've worked in many cultures. I'm curious to know what your experience is with that.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: You know, the power of language is also very an aspect of this, you know, how you put your words out, how you talk about the subject. And as many cultures cannot— you cannot use just love as a concept for leadership. I think that love is a basic value, spiritual value that is in a person, that's— yeah, you can say like that. But I believe that you can, the love comes out in different shapes, you know, in leadership. That's what I'm, the words I'm using. But in different cultures, we know that, like in the US and Western Europe, I'm from Norway and I'm in Western Europe, we have this large individualism focus, you know. And when you go to the Eastern countries, they have a lot of group focus. And that's, for them, it's very important to stick together in a group and have this coherence. But in the Western countries, it's this individualism and make a career often and think about yourself with, we say, elbows, like pushing away other people, you know. So, the word love had different outlets in different cultures, but I believe it's a basic value that everybody wants. But I'm not using love in the workplace. I'm not. I'm talking about compassion. I'm talking about how you speak to other people in your language. Then I use communication as the word, and I just put these elements of love in inside all of these other aspects. I don't know if that answered your question.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, no, no, I understand and I appreciate the— it's our job as communicators, whether we're in leadership roles or even whether we're as teachers or parents or something in our community, to use the language that's going to be most effective to connect with people and achieve what we're trying to achieve or to teach or support in whatever way. And it's totally appropriate to me that there are certain words that we don't use in different— I mean, I work in different cultures as well. There's different words that you don't say in different cultures. We can be touchy about things with language in my country here and other countries too. I'm not complaining or finding fault, just recognizing that's the reality. So I'd love to ask you, Marietta, you do a lot of teaching at universities. You teach leaders who come to— I think it's Oslo. Yes, that's what I'm telling myself. Oslo, beautiful city, especially in the summertime. And how do you structure what you're teaching? What are the key principles? I'm curious to know where you begin, how you begin to teach leaders about this, about creating workplaces of well-being where meaning is really present?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes, thank you for asking. Yeah, I've been doing this for lots of years, especially in Oslo where I have all the people coming from all over Norway and in universities. What I like to do is that I first start with the leaders testing themselves, finding their character strengths and their top 5 character strengths, and then they find out that Okay, mine was compassion, love of learning, or zest, or strength. There are like 24 different character strengths which are universal across every religion and across every nationality on Earth. This is like positive psychology. So they find their 5 top signature strengths and I ask them, do you recognize them? Do you recognize this? And they say, yes, I do. So then they know, and then I ask the group to recognize in other people or at work, colleagues like this. And then they see and they find and they feel. And how does it feel? You know, like, and yeah. And I have some groups. One particular technique is that I put if they're from the same company, because they often come from the same company, the leader groups and like this. And then I put 3 of them up there. I did this in a hospital once with doctors and nurses and all this, you know, it was really fun. And then I put them in 3 chairs and I say that the one in the middle is not allowed to speak anything and the 2 at the ends, they're gonna positive gossip about the one in the middle.
Andrew Cohn: So the 2 people on the sides are going to speak with each other.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, they gossip about the person in the middle. The 2 people next to it are gossiping positively. And then you're going to say all the positive things you know about this person. And, you know, and then I ask them, how did it feel? And everybody says, oh, this felt good. It felt good to speak positive about another person. It feels good to search for the good in other people and not speak negative. And the person in the middle always says, ah, this was so nice. Oh, I didn't know that you were thinking about me in this positive side. So this is how I make the leaders experience themselves, how it feels feels like doing all this. I call it positive psychology, positive leadership, you know, and give them a feeling of it. And so this is the way I start and it's very experimental. So they got to feel themselves what it's like. And then I take them through how we are—
Andrew Cohn: Can I just stop you for one second? So what I love about that, just, I just want to highlight this because this is wonderful. Because first of all, you're not— yes, you might introduce a concept, but they're quickly experiencing the impact of what you're talking about. You're not saying, oh, if you do this, then in 6 months your employees will feel this, this, and this. No, no, no, no. Within an hour of when you started this day, I'm experiencing something that's like, whoa, that's like— and perhaps, I imagine, perhaps I could imagine myself in that situation. Perhaps that could feel very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable at first to be hearing these positive things. I'm not used to this, and yet I can acknowledge, oh, that is positive. I can have a sense of what that's like. Well, what would it be like if the people on my team felt that on a regular basis? I love the experiential nature of that. People can really feel and sense what's the impact of a simple change like that.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes, so that's very much of it. I'm using the do the experiments themselves so they can feel it, and then we put it together. And yeah, we talk about communication, you know. One of the authors in my new book is writing a chapter on how language is creating your reality because the words you are using. So I'm speaking about communication and how you're talking to people, and I'm speaking about meaning, and I'm speaking about about many different things, but most of all I want it to be experimental so that they can learn how it feels like. I take them through a lot of different techniques like on whole organization techniques or on the individuals, learn about gratitude, learn about neuroscience, how you can make a change in the way you look at people, what is really happening in the brain when you are practicing, for instance, gratitude, for instance, looking for the good. And I show them videos from science how the really things is happening in the brain. And after like 30 days, it's more automatic, you know. So, and then you are wired for more good than negative. And yeah, it's a bit— It's It's huge. It's in many different levels I take them through.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful. And we will put the link to your Positive Intelligence book in the show notes, as well as the link to the new book if that's ready, and some other links as well. We're right at the point where it'll be released in the next month or in a couple of months, so that's great.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: In August, yeah, one month.
Andrew Cohn: Any other key principles that you might want to discuss? I mean, this is your life's work. I don't want to gloss over something that maybe we should be talking about.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, no, I like to work with individuals as well. And so, because I love to help people thrive in organizations and work. Workplaces and whatever is gonna help that is what I'm working with, you know. So, and I do it in different arenas, different areas, for different people. I've been speaking to business leaders, you know, it's financial sector, medical sector, in many different areas, for schools, whole school system, because these are principles you can use in different areas. You can use it for your personal life with your husband, wife, with your kids, family, your friends, you know. So that's what I love about all these techniques, because they are transferable to different areas of life. So it's kind of life science also.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, well, and I appreciate what you're saying, and I know for me too, if I could just, you know, in my work, It's so fulfilling when we recognize we're talking about something at work that's good for the workplace and good for the bottom line and good for productivity and expression and engagement and loyalty, etc. And it helps people be better people.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Absolutely.
Andrew Cohn: I was working with a client group a few months ago on developing skills that build trust in relationships. that are great for business development and growth, et cetera, but also about serving people and helping people. And someone turned to me and said, this would be something that would be really good for my relationship with my teenage daughter.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And it was like, yes, please use this. Use this because to your point, like you said earlier, we are the same person. at work and at home. It doesn't mean that all of the dimensions of me will come out at work. And similarly, you know, and the people who I go home to are grateful for this, not all of my work dimensions come home to be at home. You know, there's certain parts of ourselves that we bring out more fully because they're needed more and they're required more at times.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes.
Andrew Cohn: But we're the same person. So how wonderful is it that your work is to help people be more effective at work and perhaps to be happier and more fulfilled and more connected everywhere.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yes, yes, that's my goal. So that's my mission and my purpose and my contribute— contribute— contribution, contribution to the world. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Where, if people want to know more about you and your work, Again, we'll put the links to certain things in the show notes, but where do people learn more about your work, Dr. Meretta?
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Well, one can search up my name and one will find my LinkedIn or my personal or my business websites. So search my name, you'll find me somewhere. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: We'll find you. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much for your contribution. I really appreciate the conversation.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Yeah, I did too. A mutual soul. Yeah, same goes. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you.
Dr. Merethe Drønnen: Okay, thank you.
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