Why Being More Human Makes You a Stronger Leader, with Zeta Smith
What if great leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating the trust for people to find them together?
In this episode, Andrew Cohn welcomes Zeta Smith, an experienced business leader who has held senior roles across major organizations, including ExxonMobil and Starbucks. Zeta shares how her leadership evolved from being “all business” and focused primarily on results to recognizing the importance of trust, vulnerability, listening, empathy, and purpose.
Zeta reflects on leading through major crises, including the Boston Marathon bombings and COVID-19, and explains why difficult moments require leaders to balance business needs with genuine care for people. Andrew and Zeta also explore why leaders struggle to say “I don’t know,” how listening improves decision-making, and why bringing more of your authentic self to work can help others do the same.
Tune in to discover how humility, trust, and human connection can help you lead stronger teams and create workplaces where people feel seen, respected, and connected to something bigger than themselves.
Key Takeaways
Leadership is more than results: Numbers matter, but strong leadership requires understanding and caring for the people behind them.
Trust is built through actions: Communication, follow-through, clarity, recognition, and consistency create credibility over time.
Crisis requires both head and heart: Leaders must manage business realities while creating safety and stability for their teams.
“I don’t know” can build trust: Admitting you do not have an answer can demonstrate honesty, confidence, and vulnerability.
Great leaders do not solve everything alone: Involving others in problem-solving creates greater ownership, accountability, and commitment.
Listening requires intention: When leaders think they need every answer, they often stop hearing what their teams are trying to tell them.
Your team watches how you lead: The way leaders listen, communicate, appreciate others, and respond to challenges becomes a model for others.
People want to know the person behind the leader: Bringing your personal and professional selves together can create deeper trust and connection.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Why vulnerability strengthens trust
[03:41] Leadership beyond numbers and outcomes
[05:55] From “all business” to people-centered leadership
[07:18] Building trust as a young leader
[12:10] How a crisis changes leadership
[13:18] Leading after the Boston Marathon bombings
[18:48] Navigating COVID as a new leader
[20:51] Why saying “I don’t know” built trust
[22:44] Why leaders feel pressure to have all the answers
[25:28] Creating ownership through collective problem-solving
[27:55] What happens when leaders stop listening
[29:27] The Starbucks lesson that changed Zeta’s leadership
[34:01] Using breath and pause to listen better
[36:40] Making space for quieter voices
[39:01] How Zeta’s parents shaped her leadership
[42:22] Respecting every person’s work
[44:40] Bringing the personal and professional together
[47:26] Why showing your humanity matters
[48:58] How to connect with Zeta Smith
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Zeta Smith
Andrew Cohn
Music:
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Zeta Smith: When you think you need to have all the answers, the listening ears come off. People were on edge, and just not even talking about how many customers did you have today? It was about how are you? What can we do to help? And I think that's when I... Not the light bulb went off, but that's when I realized this isn't just about business.
[00:00:20] Zeta Smith: This is a people-oriented world and business that happens to operate within it. What I have learned is it actually helps when you show some humbleness, when you show some vulnerability, because your teams will, I think, even respect you even more and trust you even more and probably give you even more to perform.
[00:00:46] Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our [00:01:00] teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations.
[00:01:09] Andrew Cohn: If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
[00:01:27] Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I'm so pleased to have with me Zeta Smith. Uh, Zeta is a business leader, uh, in the US. She has been a, a CEO, GM, COO, um, member of global executive teams for, uh, global, um, service organizations. Um, and she's, uh, quite experienced and wise in areas of leadership, but also with a real keen sense of leading people.
[00:01:57] Andrew Cohn: Um, and so [00:02:00] this conversation's a wonderful intersection between her personal experience about leadership and leadership lessons, and also what effective leadership looks like. She talks about leading through crisis situations, uh, uh, including, um, the Boston Marathon bombings and leading through COVID in an organization whose mission was to support the healthcare of seniors and vulnerable populations.
[00:02:23] Andrew Cohn: Um, and it's a, a very Practical and inviting conversation about what works, what helps get the most of people, what helps us listen and lead, uh, demonstrate caring, and ultimately just be more effective as leaders. I hope you enjoy it. Uh, welcome back to the podcast. I am so pleased to have with me Zeta Smith, um, from the wonderful state of Maryland, uh, on the East Coast US, Mid-Atlantic region.
[00:02:53] Andrew Cohn: And you know, by, I, you and I met some years ago, uh, when you were in a, a very senior [00:03:00] leadership role, and, uh, we've just kept in touch since then, and I've always thought that you'd be a great guest for this podcast. So thank you for making it happen, and welcome to the podcast, Zeta.
[00:03:10] Zeta Smith: Thank you. My pleasure.
[00:03:11] Zeta Smith: I'm excited to, uh, to have a conversation with you, Andrew.
[00:03:16] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Thank you. So the, a question that I like to ask to begin these conversations is what kind of draws you to this topic? I think I have a sense of what it is for you. We've had some conversations, but this intersection of leadership and practical effective leadership and, uh, things that might be called spiritual, and people define that in different ways.
[00:03:37] Andrew Cohn: For you, what draws you to this topic, and what's the connection for you?
[00:03:41] Zeta Smith: Yeah. I think when I think about just leadership, uh, in the workplace, it's a lot more than just numbers and outcomes. There's usually another layer. Uh, and we can call it, you know, purpose or mission or [00:04:00] values. And for me, you know, when you reached out to kind of say, "Hey, can we have a discussion about it?"
[00:04:06] Zeta Smith: I said, "Absolutely," because I knew for me personally, I, I've evolved. It was always just about the results. And then realizing that there are layers around how do you lead people, finding the meaning in what you're doing, feeling like it's something bigger than yourself and why you do what you do. So I certainly was interested to have that conversation with you.
Andrew Cohn: So you talked about evolution and evolution as a leader, so I'd love if you could share a bit about your background. You can go back as far as you choose to go, um, but I'd love to hear some, um, about how you've evolved as a leader, what leadership means for you in the way we're talking about it.
[00:05:55] Zeta Smith: Thank you. I, you know, I've been around a, a bit, [00:06:00] and I've worked for large companies, um, with large portfolios and, and small- smaller portfolios, and it really always came down to people. But I do remember starting my first job, and it was really all about, you know, the numbers, and I even had a license plate that said, "All business," and I was proud of that.
[00:06:27] Zeta Smith: A-L-L B-Z-N-S. Love it. And I was rocking it, like, "This is how I am. This is how I operate." And it was, you know, working for an energy company, male-dominated, and so there was a piece that was just kinda emphas- emphasizing kind of results and drive, et cetera. And you don't lose that, and that kinda has been me inherently.
[00:06:50] Zeta Smith: However, as you go through, you know, your career and you work for different people and you work for different companies and different sizes [00:07:00] and resources and scrappy, et cetera, um, you realize there's more to it than, than just business, that there are people behind those numbers, and how do you lead them to bring their best selves to work?
[00:07:18] Zeta Smith: And my first job at this oil company, I was a marketing representative. I had 26 franchisees in North Jersey. They were all white men, average age was about 50. I was just out of college, young Black female. Uh, the tenure of those franchisee- franchisees was about 20 years. Wow. And I had to come onto this gasoline lot.
[00:07:45] Zeta Smith: That's when they ... It was more gas stations with bays and mechanics, and I had to counsel them on pricing strategy, uh, as well as selling oil to them. And what I learned very quickly is you [00:08:00] create trust as quickly as you can, and you do that by building trust by actually doing the job, following up, communication, creating clarity around what my role is, what the expectations of you as my client is, uh, and then following up and then rewarding and recognizing.
[00:08:24] Zeta Smith: And through that, I, I- Learned and applied that same concept over the years in many of the teams that I, that I have led. And I realized again that it wasn't just about the numbers, but it's the how you lead people to then have them understand, "Hey, my work does matter. You do see me." And in essence, many then began to work even harder because they understood, "Hey, this is bigger than me."
[00:08:57] Zeta Smith: And I think that's where this [00:09:00] purpose-driven leadership comes in.
[00:09:03] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Well, you just, you just put a lot on the table right there. Um, but I love that ex- experience that you shared. So they're, these, these guys, and they're guys, you know, are in their roles for 20-plus years. I'm picturing you there. As you said, you're young.
[00:09:19] Andrew Cohn: You don't look like these guys do, or their daughters do, but they probably have daughters your age. Um, and their average tenure is 20 years. What was the average tenure of someone in your role, I wonder?
[00:09:31] Zeta Smith: That's a good question. I came out of a management trainee program. Um, there were very few of us coming out, and I would say my peer group at that time, I was the youngest.
[00:09:46] Zeta Smith: Um, I think the average age probably was mid-30s, early 40s. Hmm. So my peer group was older, and certainly my client base was, was [00:10:00] older. Hmm. And I was the only one that looked like me.
[00:10:05] Andrew Cohn: And so what drew you to that oil company, that, that natural resources company, and I know what it is. But what- Mm-hmm ... what drew you to that?
[00:10:14] Andrew Cohn: Like, what got you there?
[00:10:17] Zeta Smith: Yeah. I, I had interviewed, uh, at campus. I went to University of Maryland, College Park. Um, I was practicing interviewing at a career center, and Mobil Oil, which I'll mention, uh, came on campus, and I had never even heard of them, and, uh, sat down for an interview just to practice, and it kind of progressed into that.
[00:10:45] Zeta Smith: But what I will say is there was value placed on, um, what I brought to the table in that interview. They saw something in me, uh, that they thought was going to be a good fit. [00:11:00] I liked the aspect of it was a, it was a large company, a lot of opportunity to grow, to develop- Mm-hmm ... and to learn. So that was my motivation.
[00:11:11] Andrew Cohn: Nice. And you were there for 15 years if-
[00:11:13] Zeta Smith: I was there
[00:11:14] Andrew Cohn: for 15 years ...
[00:11:15] Zeta Smith: if I recall correctly. Yeah.
[00:11:15] Andrew Cohn: So wow, okay. Very cool. So, um, and then from there you moved on to, uh, a, a very well-known, another company. You can tell me if you wanna talk about. But, but if you could share a little bit about your leadership journey, and I know we've talked about how there, there were a couple of episodes through the course of your leadership that were really, like there is for all of us- Yeah
[00:11:39] Andrew Cohn: uh, but I'd love to hear yours, of course, with respect to, you know, what helped you, I mean, what do I wanna say? You used the word evolution, so how has your leadership evolved? And, and you know, right now you're, you're in, you're in very senior role territory, and the way you talk about leadership is super attractive to me, which [00:12:00] is what drew me to you and continues to.
[00:12:01] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. But if you could talk about how your leadership evolved. Maybe there are some stories to tell or, or just something a little bit more general. The more specific, the better, I always find.
[00:12:10] Zeta Smith: Yeah. No, thank you. I think, um- It's been an evolution because you have experiences that then evolve you, and I think, um, leading through crisis is one of those examples.
[00:12:27] Zeta Smith: And when you're leading multi-unit businesses, and that's been my whole career, that involves people, that involves customers, that involves clients and, um, and the unexpected. And so when I went to, um, Starbucks, and I'll, I'll say the, the company, there were, um, you know, quite a few crises that occurred. And I would say just overall [00:13:00] with crisis management, um, 'cause I experienced it with the DC sniper at ExxonMobil and, and unfortunately many crises with Starbucks, uh, it becomes more about your head and heart when you're leading.
[00:13:18] Zeta Smith: So when a crisis happens, you're quick to think about logistics and what happens to the business and all of those things. Um, but the heart then needs to speak, um, caring about the people, what has happened, uh, creating a safe space so people can actually function and not be paralyzed. And as an example, um, unfortunately, uh, one of the stores was in the middle of the two bombs, uh, in the Boston Marathon.
[00:13:55] Zeta Smith: And obviously a traumatic and sad event for everyone involved, [00:14:00] but we had partners that were working there. We had partners, um, slash employees, uh, that were witness to a lot of, um, very traumatic, uh, activities there. And I remember literally the, a day or two after being on the ground in Boston downtown walking the streets with some of my leadership team, um, talking to employees.
[00:14:27] Zeta Smith: We had closed down some stores. People were on edge. Um, and just not even talking about, you know, "How many customers did you have today?" It was about, "How are you? What can we do to help?" Um, and I think that's when I, the, not the light bulb went off, but that's when I realized this isn't just about business.
[00:14:54] Zeta Smith: This is a people- This is a [00:15:00] people-oriented w- world and business that happens to operate within it. And so being able to go into these stores and talk to people and creating this safe space, um, I do think mattered. And in fact, you know, after, you know, things tried to normalize, I did hear from a lot of team members to say, "Hey, thank you.
[00:15:27] Zeta Smith: Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for caring." And I think all of that then shapes you to say, you know, people then understand, hey, uh, it, it's larger than me. Uh, I'm gonna work harder. Um, I feel appreciated. My work matters. And then that becomes almost this inherent motivation to, to wanna do more and wanna do better.
[00:15:50] Zeta Smith: Mm. And I brought that to then my next, um, role, um, at a, a different company, and COVID then [00:16:00] began And once again, you're in literally a life and death situation of sheer ambiguity across the board, both personally and professionally. But you have learned now, um, you know, how do you kind of keep track of this head piece with the business and what needs to happen, but also really embrace the heart piece with your team.
[00:16:28] Zeta Smith: And I think that, um, really, uh, was helpful certainly in managing, um, the, that, that crisis with COVID.
[00:16:39] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. So we're, i- if there's people listening who are surprisingly young, which I'm finding happens more and more in my life, so you're talking about the Boston Marathon. So the Boston Marathon is a very, very well-known marathon race in the US every spring run in Boston, and there were two bombings that happened near the finish line, and this [00:17:00] was back, I think, in 2013.
[00:17:02] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Um, so if you're working with Starbucks and you have two stores there, then this isn't just, oh, this is something that's happening in civilization. This is something that's happening that could threaten us physically- Yeah ... both our team members and our customers. People are freaking out because obviously this is an unprecedented thing, so you're dealing with people in a state of potentially, I gue- I sp- I wasn't there, existential threat of, is there gonna be another thing?
[00:17:27] Andrew Cohn: What's happening? Yeah. And, you know, there's carnage. I mean, it's stuff that people don't see, uh, thank God they don't see very often in Boston. Um, and, and then when you talk about COVID, my recollection is at the time you were leading a business that was caring for, uh, seniors, as I recall. Um, you're dealing with vulnerable populations at a time of COVID, so these are two crises that are not some abstract conceptual things.
[00:17:53] Andrew Cohn: This is on the ground. The people that who are, who are your employees and your team members, and [00:18:00] the people they serve are physically at risk of death.
[00:18:03] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:04] Andrew Cohn: You know? Yeah. I mean, this is some serious stuff. I won't say anything- Yeah ... that has to be bleeped out, but this is some serious stuff. Yeah.
[00:18:11] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And particularly, I, I, I sh- I wanna, I can't possibly compare those two different types of crises, but something like a COVID was really unprecedented. So I, I'm curious to know from a leadership point of view with your, your experience, what, what were the things that helped? I mean, we could break it down and say, what helped your crew and, and, a- and team members, and then what helped, you know, your, your clients and customers, and perhaps they're the same thing, perhaps they're different.
[00:18:38] Andrew Cohn: But how does one lead through COVID in a business that is touching on the lives and responsible for supporting the health and thriving of vulnerable populations?
[00:18:48] Zeta Smith: Yeah. It was definitely a challenging time. I think that ... And I was new to the company, and I was new to the business, and I was new to my [00:19:00] team.
[00:19:01] Zeta Smith: And so you, you had all of it together. But what I really depended on was my listening skills, kind of taking in what I was hearing, both from my team, from my clients, from what was going on out there and, and realizing, okay, based off of what I'm hearing, what can I be doing to either create a safe environment, create an open environment that people can continue to give feedback and updates, et cetera.
[00:19:36] Zeta Smith: Also, as I'm learning the business, what can we be doing from a business aspect to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves as well as the clients? So I would say it really came down to listening and communication. Listening and communication, and consistent listening and [00:20:00] communication. And I remember having my first call with my overall field team, so call it a couple hundred people on the, on the line.
[00:20:10] Zeta Smith: We were very new into COVID, and I was asked to kinda give, um, an update on the business and some of the changes we're gonna need to make, you know, from a structural standpoint during this time. And I remember I first had to introduce myself because a lot of people had not even, you know, met me yet. And, you know, I go through the business pieces, uh, but I remember asking some of my team members to get involved with the call, and I remember them being surprised, like, "You want me to, you know, be a part of the conversation?"
[00:20:51] Zeta Smith: Yeah. We're all leaders here. E- everyone's a leader, right? Um, but here was the, the moment for me. It [00:21:00] was Q&A, and I think people were, uh, surprised that I opened it up, because you never know what kind of questions are gonna come from an audience, especially during a very ambiguous and emotional time. Opened it up to Q&A, and someone asked me a question and I said, "I don't know, but I will get back to you."
[00:21:21] Zeta Smith: I said, "Good question. I don't know, but I will get back to you." I, I heard more feedback in a positive sense about that answer, "I don't know," than I did about everything else that I said in that entire hour. And I was a new leader to the company and to the organization that I was leading, and that to me was vulnerability.
[00:21:47] Zeta Smith: That was authenticity. That was, "Hey, I don't know, and I'm not going to stand here in the midst of this ambiguity and claim that I have all the answers." And I think that won over the [00:22:00] trust of the team very early on to say, "Okay, she's honest enough to tell us when she doesn't know. I'm all in." So that was a, a moment for me of, okay, it does matter when you show up genuinely
[00:22:17] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:22:18] Andrew Cohn: So I'm gonna ask you a question that's probably not fair to ask you, but I'll ask anyway. Why do you think that leaders sometimes struggle? Why is it unusual for people to, for leaders to say, "I don't know," especially when they're sort of under the lights? Is it internal pressure? Is it pressure that they, they, th- I have to know or else I
[00:22:38] Andrew Cohn: It's about them, it's about me?
[00:22:40] Zeta Smith: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Andrew Cohn: Uh, what do you think that is? Do you ... I, do you ... What's your thoughts on that?
[00:22:44] Zeta Smith: Yeah. I think there's an expectation when you use the word leader or boss or supervisor that you have all the answers. It's just an expectation. And so, and I think that goes [00:23:00] way back in history when someone gets assigned at a higher level position, then you must know more than I do.
[00:23:07] Zeta Smith: And so I think it starts there, and then it can become just internal to that person on how they think they should handle themselves w- them, especially when you get to larger and larger groups of people that you're leading. And yes, you should know a lot. You know, you're in this position of, of big-time responsibility, but you are only human.
[00:23:32] Zeta Smith: You don't know absolutely everything there is to know. And I also don't think there's pe- a lot of people out there that feel vulnerable enough to admit that they don't know, for fear of, well, maybe they would question my competence in the job, my confidence in the job, and/or my performance. And what I have learned is it actually [00:24:00] helps when you show some humbleness, when you show some vulnerability, because your teams will, I think, even respect you even more and trust you even more and probably give you even more to perform.
[00:24:15] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah, so yeah, and I hear you. I, I think it's not whether one is vulnerable, it's whether one is secure enough or confident enough- Mm-hmm ... to expose that vulnerability. And it, I s- I suppose it goes to, you know, is leadership about, is being in a position of high responsibility about knowing, ab- about having the solution to everything or being able to get to a solution
[00:24:38] Andrew Cohn: for anything?
[00:24:38] Andrew Cohn: I love
[00:24:38] Andrew Cohn: that.
[00:24:39] Andrew Cohn: The ability to solve the problem, not necessarily having the answer at the current time, especially as we're, as we're in times of exponential change and adaptive change and adaptive leadership, where the problems that we're solving now are not the problems that I had when I was two levels down.
[00:24:54] Zeta Smith: Absolutely.
[00:24:55] Andrew Cohn: Right? S- so my, my-
[00:24:56] Zeta Smith: And much more complex. Much more complex
[00:24:59] Andrew Cohn: Yes, [00:25:00] complex and, and, and newer and sometimes relies on technologies that I can't even spell or don't know the acronym. Uh, but my, my ability to com- my, my asset, my, my, um, my, my contribution is the ability to solve a problem either individually or more likely collectively than it is to have the answer.
[00:25:19] Andrew Cohn: But it, it's interesting if there's a reluctance to express vulnerability and you're sort of, "Eh, I'm not really telling people, but maybe they know anyway, but I'm not gonna tell."
[00:25:28] Zeta Smith: No, and I also think, um, being part of the problem-solving to create a solution that everyone's a part of makes it even stronger and more sustainable.
[00:25:43] Zeta Smith: So when you have all the answers, no one's involved. You're just giving the answers. But-
[00:25:49] Andrew Cohn: Hmm ...
[00:25:49] Zeta Smith: when you're, especially, you know, the higher level roles, you know, the more complex the problems become. As you involve more people in that [00:26:00] problem-solving, um, you know, there, everyone has skin in the game to help solve, then there's almost this motivation to, hey, we're, we're all in this together.
[00:26:10] Zeta Smith: Accountability, responsibility, and ownership take over.
[00:26:16] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah, so now you're talking about the benefits of, of collective problem-solving.
[00:26:22] Zeta Smith: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:23] Andrew Cohn: Right? As opposed to the default or perhaps the expectation of individual leadership decision-making. Yeah.
[00:26:29] Zeta Smith: Yeah. And, and don't get me wrong, I think there are moments that you need to do that as well.
[00:26:34] Zeta Smith: Like if- Mm-hmm ... if we collaborated on absolutely every decision, you know, we, we may not get the work done where we need to, but I think there's many an opportunity to involve teams in, in, in problem-solving. And I, I do think that leadership expectations has evolved over time just overall, where it used to be kind of this direct tell.
[00:26:59] Zeta Smith: We know [00:27:00] how we grew up. You know, your parents said, "Go do this." "Why?" "Because I said so." Th- that has obviously continued to morph. Now you, you have more conversations, more explanations about the why, and those types of things where everyone can learn why are we doing what we're doing. I've got that. Now got that, I'm gonna work even harder to accomplish that and accomplish that together.
[00:27:28] Zeta Smith: So I've seen that change even with the teams that I've led through the years.
[00:27:33] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Hmm. Well, one thing I, I, I wanna come back to and be sure we, we unpack a little bit is you talked a, a few times about listening and the impact of listening, and perhaps listening in a certain way. I'm not sure if that's what you meant.
[00:27:47] Andrew Cohn: But is there, is there a story, an incident, or a personal evolution about listening that you could share, please?
[00:27:55] Zeta Smith: Yeah. Um, I got plenty of stories, [00:28:00] uh, about, uh, about listening. Here's what I would say, and it goes back to our previous conversation. When you think you need to have all the answers, the listening ears come off.
[00:28:16] Zeta Smith: And so I would say early on in my career, I probably wasn't the best listener. But when you start getting exposed to a variety of different problems and things, and, um, it really matters to hear what people are saying, to get feedback, to then check and adjust. And I had really a leadership moment, and I would call it listening and probably some other things.
[00:28:47] Zeta Smith: When I left from ExxonMobil, I came to Starbucks. ExxonMobil was very, um, process-driven. Um, you know, it's a mature [00:29:00] industry. I learned so much about operations and P&L management. I also was, in one of my roles, um, working in construction sites with new locations, et cetera. So I had built almost kind of this armor, if you will, of I know what I'm doing, I'm working hard, and I'm, I'm moving forward.
[00:29:27] Zeta Smith: When I came to Starbucks, uh, we had just remodeled an- a, a location, a high-profile location. The construction team was there, uh, and I had to do a punch list, which means you're walking through the location, and you're looking at all the details and making a punch list of some of the unfinished items. And I was with my team, once again, newer to this organization, but bringing in some of my experience from the old.
[00:29:58] Zeta Smith: So we're walking [00:30:00] around the, the, the store, and I'm literally critiquing everything, pointing it out, this, that, and the other. And I was not listening to what the construction guys were kinda walking me through and explaining what they had gone through, what they have done, what the challenges have been, what they had overcome.
[00:30:21] Zeta Smith: Wasn't listening. So we go through, I'm pointing it out, and I have kind of my team, you know, following me, and, and then they start pointing things out, right? I'm feeling good, you know. "Hey, we, we, you know, have made sure everything's really, you know, tight here." Not really thinking nor listening to what the construction team had, had shared.
[00:30:48] Zeta Smith: I may have said thank you, um, at the end of the, at the end of the visit. That night, I get a call from my new boss, who said, "Hey, I hear you [00:31:00] had a visit at, you know, the location during the punch list." "Yes." He said, "Hey, listen. Um, this is about making sure you're bringing everyone along. Um, my understanding is you did a lot of pointing out, you didn't listen, and you didn't show appreciation."
[00:31:23] Zeta Smith: So I, I had the on-the-spot coaching of, you know, w- what we really should be doing and how we really should be treating people. I share that because I know inherently how I wanna be treated. I even have a sign on my board that says, "Do you want to work for you?" I know- Hmm ... right? But you get so caught up in how you're supposed to be, listening ears come off, you think you know, and next thing you know, your team's leading like you.
[00:31:57] Zeta Smith: And I got called out on it in a [00:32:00] positive way. This was a coaching moment, and I took that with me from then on, whatever job I did, whatever company. That, okay, I gotta listen and then show appreciation. Still point out different things, but had I listened, I would have heard some of the challenges that they had gone through.
[00:32:21] Zeta Smith: I would have been a bit more empathetic to, oh, now I understand. But I wasn't, I wasn't open to that at that time, I think because of our previous conversation of I'm, I'm the leader here, and this is how you're supposed to show up.
[00:32:38] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Right. And as I heard you tell the story about things you were pointing out, it was like you were enthusiastically pointing those things out.
[00:32:45] Zeta Smith: Oh, yeah.
[00:32:45] Andrew Cohn: That was your job to point those things out.
[00:32:47] Zeta Smith: Yes. And
[00:32:48] Andrew Cohn: demonstrate, "I see those things, and those things matter, and I know what that means, and it has to be completed," and that all of that. You know, it's almost like the numbers, but it's not the numbers, but it's almost like the numbers we-
[00:32:58] Zeta Smith: Yes. [00:33:00] Yes.
[00:33:00] Zeta Smith: Mm-hmm. And I, I, in fact, there was no smiling. It was, it was all business. And, and what I also learned was, okay, I had a team that saw that, so now they think that's how they should be leading. So-
[00:33:18] Andrew Cohn: Right, 'cause you're modeling that ...
[00:33:19] Zeta Smith: yes, the impact piece is another learning I've had is, hey, however y- I'm showing up, you know, that's bound to have an impact on how they show up with their teams, especially as you get larger and larger in, in companies.
[00:33:36] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Well, I d- I definitely wanna talk about impact, but, but the first question that c- that comes to me when you're talking about, again, about keeping our listening ears on is what, uh, what do we need to keep in mind? How do we, how can we in- if not ensure, at least increase the chances that we're gonna keep listening?
[00:33:56] Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm. What can we do?[00:34:00]
[00:34:01] Zeta Smith: I'll tell you what I'd do is breathe. Sometimes we get so caught up in the daily grind, in the fast pace, and I've got to get to these emails, and I have this call, and I'm known to back up my calendar back to back to back to back. Um, and when you get kind of on that hamster wheel, it doesn't give you room to just force yourself to pause.
[00:34:35] Zeta Smith: So I've learned if I just, I take three deep breaths, ground myself, it does press a reset button almost physically for me- Hmm ... to be able to receive more coming in. Sometimes if you're not pausing, it's really hard to go, go, and I'm listening. You know, you can't kind of [00:35:00] bring it, uh, have things come in and also have things come out.
[00:35:05] Zeta Smith: Um, I call it auto eject. There's too much coming in, so I, I gotta auto eject. And so I, I pause, I breathe. Now, if you talk in general terms, I do think that leaders should encourage just pressing a pause button or giving a bit of room for listening, um, explaining the value of that and, and Because when you're, when you receive more information that's coming in, then you can probably do more with that information.
[00:35:46] Zeta Smith: If, if you're not listening, then you don't get any information, and then you're not actually, you know, being able to apply what you've heard.
[00:35:55] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:35:55] Zeta Smith: Does that make sense?
[00:35:56] Andrew Cohn: Well, sure. Well, well, it just, with the last piece you just mentioned, [00:36:00] if, if my lack of listening limits inputs- Yeah ... um, and those inputs can be useful in solving problems or at least being informed about what's happening in different places, then if the lack of listening limits effectiveness- Yeah
[00:36:13] Andrew Cohn: because there's only, you, there's, there's less coming in that may have value.
[00:36:17] Zeta Smith: Yeah.
[00:36:17] Andrew Cohn: Um, um, but I, I love this point, and I wonder if there's... And maybe you've done this, and maybe you haven't. I've done this with a few clients, but it's reminding me it's a great support for client meetings. I do facilitate a lot of client meetings, as you know, is as an agenda item, I wonder near the end of a meeting, is there something that you don't think has been heard in this meeting?
[00:36:40] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:36:41] Andrew Cohn: Before we wrap up this meeting, is there some way I could have listened better, or we could have listened better? Is anybody sitting on an observation where we weren't fully listening? Let's raise it now while we're still in the room together.
[00:36:54] Zeta Smith: What I love about that is, one, it pauses [00:37:00] everyone. Two, it emphasizes the importance of listening and the impact it could have.
[00:37:06] Zeta Smith: And three, most importantly, is it's inclusive to those that may be on the more introverted side, that are probably the best listeners, that may not have had an opportunity to say something And then I'd add a fourth one, which is, um, it's showing appreciation for the voices in the room. Sometimes, especially in meetings, you get kind of caught up in, "Let's just get this information, put it into this.
[00:37:38] Zeta Smith: Let's move this along." Um, but when you're actually taking in the information, you're valuing the opinions, and you're incorporating those into the actual solving of the problem, powerful. Powerful.
[00:37:56] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and it comes back [00:38:00] to this notion that I think we've, you know, we've, we've all heard that every interaction has a, there's a task objective and there's a relationship objective.
[00:38:07] Andrew Cohn: Yeah.
[00:38:07] Andrew Cohn: Um-
[00:38:07] Andrew Cohn: Yeah ... I
[00:38:08] Andrew Cohn: mean, whether we're expressing it or not, it is, because we're gonna leave that conversation with something happening with regard to the task and something happening with regard to the relationship. So is that something, something positive or something negative? Something constructive or something eroding?
[00:38:23] Andrew Cohn: You know, something we're building upon or something that we're deconstructing.
[00:38:27] Zeta Smith: Agreed. Agreed.
[00:38:28] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing. I wanna ask you a sort of anything else kind of question. So, um, just in the time that we have here, anything else about your observations about leadership or that intersection of things that might be deemed spiritual, and you've talked about purpose and meaning and engagement and, uh, et cetera, and, and effective leadership.
[00:38:51] Andrew Cohn: I just, the, I, you just, you, you've got a lot to share, and I wanna give you a little more space if you've got something, um, [00:39:00] ready to share.
[00:39:01] Zeta Smith: Yeah, I, I do. Um, I guess twofold. One is, you know, I didn't have an opportunity to share a bit about my background.
[00:39:10] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yes.
[00:39:11] Zeta Smith: Which, you know, I, I grew up in suburbia, um, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
[00:39:19] Zeta Smith: And my parents made a clear choice and decision to move us, we lived in the city, to move us to a district that was known for its education. And, um, and it was more expensive to live, et cetera, but that's how strongly they felt about education for me and my brother, my older brother. And early on in the neighborhood, I learned about...
[00:39:49] Zeta Smith: I, I, I was exposed to leadership with both my mom and my dad. My mom was one of the few working mothers. She was the only one on the street, a [00:40:00] working mom. Um-
[00:40:01] Andrew Cohn: Isn't that interesting how aware you were of that?
[00:40:05] Zeta Smith: At a young age. You knew that. I was in kindergarten. Mm-hmm. I was kindergarten. But how I was aware was my mom was working, and I was, you know, staying with a, a neighbor when I got off the bus, uh, you know, because my mom was working.
[00:40:21] Zeta Smith: And I remember her sharing later on when I'm old enough to know how, um, she felt, how some of the neighbors made her feel about working, working outside of the home. And for me, it was inspirational. That's what, that's what women do, right? We... And that's what partners do, with my dad. Mm-hmm. So Dad's working, Mom's working, and they were both able to show their love and support to my brother and I, and to, to really to me demonstrate I can be, I can be anything and anyone.
[00:40:56] Zeta Smith: Um, I ended up [00:41:00] probably age six, age seven saying to my parents that I've always wanted to be a businesswoman. And I didn't really know what that was, but I knew I was carrying a briefcase. I was wearing a sharp suit. I was walking into a glass building, and someone was gonna ask me do I want coffee, and I'd walk to this corner office.
[00:41:22] Zeta Smith: That was my-
[00:41:24] Andrew Cohn: And, and you had the license plate.
[00:41:26] Zeta Smith: And... Not the license plate yet.
[00:41:28] Andrew Cohn: Okay. All right.
[00:41:29] Zeta Smith: Remember, this is my vision as a little kid.
[00:41:32] Andrew Cohn: Got it.
[00:41:32] Zeta Smith: Um, what I didn't picture was I was gonna be leading people. I was picturing just kind of I'm gonna be this businesswoman. So going from I'm gonna be a businesswoman to I'm going to be a leader was kind of the, the evolution.
[00:41:50] Zeta Smith: But I would say my parents, you know, brought us up, um, obviously valuing [00:42:00] education, but valuing hard work and how you're gonna treat people. And my dad said something to me, I was in college and I'm working factory work 'cause it paid, uh, paid well over the summer breaks. And my dad said to me, "When you go to these factories, you're gonna be- you're not gonna be working in a factory when you graduate from college.
[00:42:22] Zeta Smith: I don't think you will. I think you're gonna be leading teams. This is what I want you to take away. These factory workers ha- may have been here 20, 30 years, and they're still gonna be here when you leave, so respect their work and respect them. I know it's just a summer job to you, but this is their livelihood to them.
[00:42:45] Zeta Smith: Treat them with respect." And I use that, that moment that my dad shared really has kind of carried me because w- as, uh, regardless of whatever position I've been in, you [00:43:00] know, I go into stores, I go into communities, you know, I'm talking to everybody. I see you. I respect what the work that you do. There's something about that in leadership as well that I, I wanted to share.
[00:43:16] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah, what a beautiful, simple story, and to, for him to share his perspective on that, and it stays with you. It's beautiful.
[00:43:24] Zeta Smith: Yeah. Yeah. One last thing, Andrew. You know, growing up
[00:43:34] Zeta Smith: Growing up is being, a- a- and being one of the few that look like me, um, sometimes you put on armor up. Uh, you know, you're striving, you're working hard. You, you wanna be your best, and it worked for me. I had a successful, um, you know, uh, school year, [00:44:00] school years. I had a successful college career. Um, but that armor...
[00:44:09] Zeta Smith: I'm gonna stop here
[00:44:18] Zeta Smith: I know what I want to say
[00:44:22] Andrew Cohn: Okay.
[00:44:23] Zeta Smith: Okay.
[00:44:23] Andrew Cohn: All right, so just take, let's just take a pause for two or three seconds.
[00:44:27] Zeta Smith: Yeah.
[00:44:27] Andrew Cohn: And then you just start wherever you wanna start.
[00:44:30] Zeta Smith: Yeah
[00:44:40] Andrew Cohn: One thing that I've learned, Andrew, as I've
[00:44:43] Zeta Smith: evolved as a leader is I used to be
[00:44:54] Zeta Smith: Very protective of me, protective of the personal part of me, and it was always [00:45:00] the professional. I cared about people, but I'm keeping it professional. Relationships, friendships, a little bit of a guard. And maybe that came from just growing up and being kind of w- the only one and very purposeful, right?
[00:45:19] Zeta Smith: What I've learned is you can walk both paths, and it actually makes it easier when the personal and the professional come together 'cause then you can actually be yourself and also lead people. And a, a poignant point that came about was when I adopted my son. Mm-hmm. It's now 11 years, and I hesitated of, should I share it?
[00:45:49] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:45:50] Zeta Smith: Which was a mind-blowing, life-changing moment for myself that I wasn't sure if this was something that even people [00:46:00] cared about, or did it matter, or any of those things. And I, I was encouraged, um, by my HR partner, who was always like, "Hey, Zeta, people just wanna get to know you. You know, this is a part of leadership."
[00:46:16] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:46:17] Zeta Smith: And I was slowly coming out of my shell, sharing different, um, aspects of myself, but nothing gets more personal than adopting a child, and everyone knows how that will change your life. And I think after sharing that, um, I, I actually think I did become a better leader. You know, I had a fuller picture of life and being empathetic, et cetera.
[00:46:45] Zeta Smith: But the encouragement to say, "Hey, you can be a professional, and you can bring your personal life," and imagine just walking it in one path. And so when we... kind of rounding out this discussion, when we talk about [00:47:00] purpose and it being bigger than you, um, as I stepped into leadership roles, um, that type of experience really made a difference in how I lead now, and so that I can bring all of me to work, that I can role model that to others, and I can create a safe space for teams to perform, in which they do.
[00:47:26] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah, beautiful. So your, your willingness to be more real and authentic and open, um, contributes to your leadership, contributes to the depth and levels of contribution of your team, not to mention, I would imagine, stronger levels of engagement, higher levels of engagement. This is a, this is a real person who I'm working for.
[00:47:44] Zeta Smith: Yes. You
[00:47:45] Andrew Cohn: know? I respect her
[00:47:47] Zeta Smith: It makes a difference, and I think people get more, um, either understanding, motivation, inspiration, [00:48:00] learnings when they know that their leader, um, is a person, is a human. So I think it just brings in the, the human side. So as we open this call around, you know, uh, purpose and, you know, how do you lead with purpose, that it's not just about the numbers.
[00:48:22] Zeta Smith: You know? It is, it is people. It's feeling that you are, that there's, th- y- you're working in something that's much bigger than yourself.
[00:48:33] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Thank you so much. We can continue this conversation. I hope we do. It'll be interesting to see where and when and how and in what capacity, but I know we will. And thank you so much for your, your contributions here.
[00:48:46] Andrew Cohn: Um- Thank you ... we, um, if, if, if somebody wants to reach you, uh, if, if, if that's an option, maybe I shouldn't put you on the spot like that, but how, how could they best learn about you or perhaps contact you?
[00:48:58] Zeta Smith: Yes. You can [00:49:00] easily find me on LinkedIn, Zeta Smith. Very, very easy.
[00:49:05] Andrew Cohn: Easy as can be. And
[00:49:06] Zeta Smith: we look forward to hearing some stories, some leadership stories from others.
[00:49:11] Andrew Cohn: Mm. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for your wisdom. I really appreciate it.
[00:49:17] Zeta Smith: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for the invitation. Really appreciated the conversation.
[00:49:25] Andrew Cohn: Thank you for listening to Spirituality in Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, please subscribe to the show. Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. You can go to the site spiritualityinleadership.com or your preferred podcast platform to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of [00:50:00] yourself