How Forgiveness Makes You a Better Leader, with Nat Sharratt
What if the beliefs holding you back are not facts, but judgments you have learned to carry?
Could stronger leadership begin with forgiving yourself, releasing what no longer works, and taking greater responsibility for your life?
In this episode, Andrew Cohn welcomes Nat Sharratt, a spiritual coach, facilitator, entrepreneur, and author who brings practical spirituality into leadership, business, relationships, and everyday life.
Nat shares his unconventional journey, from seeking spiritual answers as a teenager to working closely with spiritual teacher John-Roger, taking a decade-long vow of poverty, building businesses, and learning courage and presence through surfing waves that reach nearly 20 feet.
Andrew and Nat explore limiting beliefs, self-judgment, forgiveness, personal responsibility, deep listening, and why great leaders give others the freedom to take ownership of a shared vision.
Tune in to discover how releasing judgment, honoring yourself, and taking responsibility can help you lead with greater clarity, freedom, and inner peace.
Key Takeaways
Leadership begins within: You do not need a title to lead. Leadership starts with taking responsibility for your choices, relationships, and growth.
Limiting beliefs shape behavior: Hidden beliefs about money, success, relationships, and self-worth can quietly block growth and abundance.
Forgiveness is practical: Forgiveness helps release the emotional judgments that keep you stuck. It is not about excusing harmful behavior.
Boundaries still matter: Letting go of judgment does not mean tolerating abuse, unethical conduct, or situations that do not honor you.
Self-forgiveness fosters change: Sincerity, empathy, and compassion can loosen the “knots” that are held in your consciousness.
Great leaders give power away: Strong leadership creates a compelling vision and gives people room to make it their own.
In This Episode:
· [00:00] Why forgiveness is practical, not “airy-fairy”
· [03:16] Nat’s unconventional spiritual and professional journey
· [04:24] Choosing a spiritual path at 17
· [07:33] Learning courage and presence through surfing
· [11:24] Why leadership is not limited to job titles
· [16:07] Searching for spiritual answers from an early age
· [22:36] Why life is simple but not easy
· [25:08] Spiritual experience versus intellectual understanding
· [28:15] Embracing the parts of ourselves we reject
· [31:04] Introducing forgiveness to people who feel resistant
· [32:57] Limiting beliefs about money and self-worth
· [34:37] How judgment creates emotional knots
· [40:16] A simple self-forgiveness practice
· [42:28] Forgiving without excusing harmful behavior
· [49:05] Asking, “Is this working for you?”
· [50:11] Identifying personal and organizational blockers
· [52:06] Listening beyond someone’s words
· [54:00] Courage and personal responsibility
· [55:00] Creating a vision others can own
· [58:38] Nat’s books, workshops, and resources
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Nat Sharratt
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
[00:00:00] Nat Sharratt: All of us have bad habits that we'll, that we can work on, that we can upgrade, that we can move into something that works better for us and those in our lives. It's really, you know, how we're interpreting things against us in a way that stops us from really being the best of who we are and experiencing the greatest abundance that we can have.
[00:00:28] Nat Sharratt: So to really start looking at these things that when we're talking about forgiveness, we're not going into some airy-fairy spiritual thing. Like, this is real. This is real life, real brass tacks. This is practical. You know, this is being smart with your life, and you're doing it to let go of those things that are not working for you.
[00:00:51] Nat Sharratt: And people want that. People want to let go of the things that aren't working for them.
[00:01:00] Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations.
[00:01:23] Andrew Cohn: If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
[00:01:45] Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I'm so happy to speak with Nat Sharratt. Nat is a coach, facilitator, and businessman, uh, has a remarkable personal story about connecting with a [00:02:00] global spiritual teacher at the age of 17, and just being very clear from a young age that he really wanted to pursue his understanding of spirituality.
[00:02:08] Andrew Cohn: He talks about his experience working alongside John-Roger, a global spiritual teacher, for many years, and at the same time being involved in business, in a jewelry business, currently involved in a branding and marketing business, uh, where he is now in Puerto Rico with a few partners. He's done some day trading in crypto, and some interesting business experience that he talks about.
[00:02:30] Andrew Cohn: But largely, uh, we focus on, uh, the impact on leadership and our own effectiveness of letting go of our limiting beliefs. Uh, we discuss forgiveness and what that really means, and letting go of judgments and the impact that judgments have on our individual effectiveness, and also our effectiveness in the workplace, uh, working with other people.
[00:02:54] Andrew Cohn: And the willingness that we hope we have to look at some of the darker parts, [00:03:00] some of the judgments and other negative things as we may interpret them about ourselves, and the courage that that takes. Uh, Nat is just... He's very practical, he's very wise. He's delightfully open and free in how he communicates.
[00:03:16] Andrew Cohn: It's a pleasure to speak with him and to learn from him, and I hope you enjoy the podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Nat Sharrot. Uh, you are coming to us all the way from Puerto Rico via the world of electronic recording and such. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Welcome.
[00:03:34] Nat Sharratt: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew.
[00:03:36] Nat Sharratt: It's a pleasure.
[00:03:38] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Thank you. I've been, I've been tracking your, your work for some years in a variety of different contexts, including your podcast and your Substack, which hopefully you might share a bit about in this recording. And we've been around this topic, um, you and I a bit, and having conversations about getting, um, you know, making this work.
[00:03:56] Andrew Cohn: But you've had a really interesting, remarkable, somewhat [00:04:00] unusual path, both with respect to spirituality and leadership, if it's fair for me to say that. I don't know how you would c- you know, categorize, but it's not quite a mainstream path, but you've got lots of stories and wisdom to share
[00:04:12] Nat Sharratt: Yes, I would say it is very unorthodox, uh, to say the least, and it isn't unfair to say-- Or maybe it's unfair, Andrew, it's unfair to say that.
[00:04:24] Nat Sharratt: No, it's, it's very on point. My life has been something of a unique path. And to give you an idea, I basically started-- Well, I started this path, this has been my life path, let's say, has been, uh, unique starting very early on. But I'll begin around 17 when I finished high school, and I was very clear that I wanted to work with my spiritual teacher, John-Roger, and decided that that's what I was gonna do, not knowing that, [00:05:00] uh, working closely with him Uh, was any big deal.
[00:05:05] Nat Sharratt: I was just like, I'm, I'm gonna do this. This is what I wanna do. And, and I set my mind to it and ended up that year-- It actually, I wanted to-- I knew I was gonna do it a couple years before, but I wanted to do that. And so I started working with him and living in the same home as him and traveling the world with him, doing his spiritual work, which was reaching out to so many thousands and thousands of people, and if you count his books and all the organizations he founded, millions of people.
[00:05:38] Nat Sharratt: And so getting that in-person, one-on-one Karate Kid style mentorship of someone who was a great spiritual force and had multiple organizations, uh, multiple bestselling books, you know, on the outer had [00:06:00] all of that, as well as he was the real deal on the inner and how he worked spiritually. So that is something that I would say that alone qualifies a, a unique lifestyle.
[00:06:15] Nat Sharratt: I, I went on to vow of poverty, owning no material possessions for around a decade, and then went off of it, still working with him closely, uh, for another seven years or so aft- until he passed away. In that time period-- And I-- And during that time period, I co-founded a jewelry company, which then during that time and then especially after he passed away, uh, definitely flourished.
[00:06:42] Nat Sharratt: And then I ended my part of that, sold my part of that, and then moved back into the spiritual coaching, spiritual counseling, podcasting, uh, writing, all sorts of [00:07:00] different adventures in the spiritual education field, which obviously I had plenty of experiences with going all over the world doing things from aura balances, doing things like leading workshops, uh, doing retreats, doing all sorts of spiritual-based and consciousness, uh, expansion-based work workshops with a lot of people, and then moved to Puerto Rico, and where I live-- currently reside.
[00:07:33] Nat Sharratt: I always loved surfing, so that became a big part of my life here, where I decided I was going to really learn, and I, uh, had the pleasure of a, of a really good coach here, uh, to learn not just how to surf-- stand on a surfboard, which is what I did when I lived in LA, and I did sometimes around the world when I-- we were traveling with John Roger.
[00:07:57] Nat Sharratt: I'd go to different spots and surf. I [00:08:00] can't really honestly call it surfing back then because I was just standing on a board. Here, I learned to surf. I learned, uh, with someone who-- Magnum Martinez, who's a Olympic coach for surf teams, and he taught me as an adult how to surf waves. Surfing some big waves, I don't know if I'll do it again, uh, that big.
[00:08:20] Nat Sharratt: You know, I'd say the biggest day was in the 18 to 20 foot range, and that's a solid experience of fear and a lot of preparation to be able to get to that level where I can, as safe as you can, surf something at that, at that level, and that's something I did while I was here. I wrapped that into a new book that I've actually finished the first manuscript go of it, uh, where I discuss how I learned from the ocean And the lessons I learned about [00:09:00] life in the ocean, learning surfing at this level.
[00:09:03] Nat Sharratt: And then I cut back in the book to how I learned those lessons with John Roger, who I call JR, with JR early on, and how he taught me those lessons, and then how the ocean taught me those lessons. And so that's a- another book. I, I like to write books. I like to write weekly articles on my Substack. Writing is something very passionate to me.
[00:09:28] Nat Sharratt: And in the meantime, here in Puerto Rico, I've also had other business ventures, uh, such as in land development as well as in a partnership in a design and advertising business, as well as continue, uh, very much so my spiritual education, uh, work, educating others on living life spiritually. And part of that is it has to be practical.
[00:09:57] Nat Sharratt: I live in the real world. I live [00:10:00] doing business. How do you do that in a way that is in alignment with living a, a spiritually based life, and what does that even mean to people? And so that's a lot of, of how I approach it is, is with all these experiences, you know, both in the nonprofit field, both in the church type field, both in the workshops and retreats, as well as my experiences in the jewelry industry, as well as my experiences in investing.
[00:10:31] Nat Sharratt: Also in-- I was early on in the whole crypto space back in the day, uh, as well as I've worked with, uh-- I started with trying currencies and Lost a lot of money. I call it I paid for my education in learning how to understand charts, and I learned, I learned that was, uh, not really an expensive lesson for all I learned and, and what it has-- how it has served me.
[00:10:58] Nat Sharratt: But I learned about [00:11:00] money and flows of money and, and investments and how that all works, and I'm still learning. Uh, you know, you, you learn through loss and through gains. And so I, I've been involved in those areas as well, as well as my current newer business of, uh, the design work and advertising work, and really functioning on the business, uh, development side of that.
[00:11:24] Nat Sharratt: So I have my fingers in a, in a lot of different areas of experience, and all of it, though, the, the core factor so it makes sense to be on, on your show is to be in that, like, area of spirituality and leadership and spirituality and business and spirituality and, and leadership in, in, in our lives. You know, you, you don't have to be the CEO to be a leader.
[00:11:52] Nat Sharratt: You don't have to be the founder to be a leader. You can be a leader in your own life, in your family, with your friends, [00:12:00] and not that you're the one in control either. It's just giving you content here. I'm, I'm talking a lot without the next question, but it reminds me of the Herman-- I think, believe it is a Herman Hesse book.
[00:12:13] Nat Sharratt: Is that correct? And it's called "Journey to the East," and that is a fantastic book about leadership, and it's about how the servant is the leader. And so there's an element of service and bringing forward that, and how does that look? How does it look when you are the one in control and you are the boss, and you do have that power?
[00:12:33] Nat Sharratt: And how does it look when you're not? And those-- bringing in all those elements is something that I look at a lot, you know, and I write about, you know, a lot of essential spirituality and how to really get to the core of it, 'cause there's so much out there and it's just like h- but really what's practical?
[00:12:56] Nat Sharratt: What can you truly integrate into your [00:13:00] life in all these different ways? And that's what I am talking on, that's what I'm educating people on how to do.
[00:13:06] Andrew Cohn: Y- yeah, thank you. We-- No, thank- you've teed up an awful lot. There's a lot to sort of tease out here. I really, I would love to talk about this piece that you're talking about, um, was it in- inter- uh, not integral, essential spirituality.
[00:13:17] Andrew Cohn: But, uh, and that to me is really, really inviting, and you talked about a lot in terms of your personal experience, and I almost feel like we need to do a little bit of a glossary for listeners, and maybe we can do that in the form of show notes. Uh, for example, I know that John-Roger was the founder and spiritual director of the organization what's called MSIA or Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness, msia.org.
[00:13:39] Andrew Cohn: It was based in Los Angeles, and you talked about your time in LA. So when you were, uh, so close to him, and it was, it was a function a little bit like a, like a personal assistant or a, what, what would you even call the scope of what you did? You were inner circle for sure, right?
[00:13:53] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, it, it definitely evolved over time.
[00:13:57] Nat Sharratt: Sure. You know, there was... I held different [00:14:00] positions in the organizations at different times. I did different functions, let's say, in the organizations. All throughout that, I also acted as a personal assistant in some cases. As he got older, I became a caretaker in some ways, in the ways that would assist him continuing.
[00:14:24] Nat Sharratt: You know, when his eyesight wasn't good, I would help him Go through and read and help edit and do all those things of, of his book that he wrote at that time, you know, and, and help in different ways with different books. But there was a lot of different help him with his correspondence, with his emails, uh, when he wasn't able to, you know, sit in front of a screen as much.
[00:14:50] Nat Sharratt: And so-- but he could-- we could sit with him and read it to him, um, and he could respond and, and those-- so that was became more and more hands-on and, [00:15:00] and like helping him personally with his work later on. And in the earlier years, you know, sometimes I'd be, uh, with him traveling, assisting him directly.
[00:15:13] Nat Sharratt: Sometimes I'd be facilitating something in front of the people, workshop or an event or something of that nature. Uh, sometimes I'd be, uh, traveling just with others, doing different type of direct one-on-one services with people. Uh, so in terms of working with him-- And, and sometimes I'd be-- You know, there was a lot of meetings of the leadership of his different organizations, and so oftentimes I would be there with him, uh, in, in that capacity of assisting him in managing the different leaders of the organizations that he had because he had multiple.
[00:15:54] Nat Sharratt: And, you know, sometimes I just-- he wasn't well, and I'd go be in those meetings as his [00:16:00] representative. And so that, that was how a lot of that functioned in terms of my work with him.
[00:16:07] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Great. So you really get exposed to an awful lot. And something else that stood out to me is so you, you had the clarity at 17 to say, "I wanna be close to that teacher."
[00:16:16] Andrew Cohn: And was that a-- I'm torn here. Do I wanna-- Uh, because I'm very curious about your personal background or your personal story, and I'd love to get to essential spirituality for sure. But ju- well, just to highlight, it's an unusual, it's an unusual adolescent who can say, "I want to connect and be close to a spiritual teacher and, and basically live that life."
[00:16:37] Andrew Cohn: Where-- And I don't-- can't pretend that I know exactly what that means, but to have that at a young age is pretty remarkable. Was that for you, was that something that was just very clear? Would it-- Did it come out of a result of an internal struggle of some kind? Or it was just like, "No, this is just the natural thing I'm called to do"?
[00:16:52] Nat Sharratt: It was something that evolved throughout my younger years, I'd say. I definitely [00:17:00] was searching for something and reading and participating, whether that was, you know, reading the Bible, reading Thich Nhat Hanh or Kahlil Gibran or just different mystical traditions, uh, some Native American, some Mormon, some whatever.
[00:17:20] Nat Sharratt: For me, I was looking for something that gave me the answers. I guess you could say I, I start-- I, I came into this life with an existential crisis. Like, I came here- Whoa ... it's like, "Hey, w- w- what? What am I doing here? Why am I here? And what does it mean, all this?"
[00:17:41] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And well, I appreciate-- Well, that's right.
[00:17:44] Andrew Cohn: So you came in with a cri- I think a lot of us come in in, with a crisis, but to be able to begin to address it at 17 is pretty remarkable. So good for you for getting it young and relevant. I mean,
[00:17:52] Nat Sharratt: I definitely was addressing it earlier than that. I mean, I was addressing-- I was- Right ... going and hanging out with the local crystal guy and, and him teaching me how [00:18:00] to or- balance auras with crystals and what the properties were.
[00:18:03] Nat Sharratt: And I was, like, trying, trying everything, going to the youth group and, you know, going to the, the minister, the Presbyterian minister, and having dialogues with him and arguing with him about, you know, doctrine and things of that nature. I, I was very much interested in the, the questioning and figuring it out, uh, aspect.
[00:18:24] Nat Sharratt: And, and when I did-- I actually did meet John-Roger 'cause my grandmother followed him, so I met him back when I was, like, very young, four or five or something like that. But I went on my own journey after that, and then when I came back around, I started reading something. I didn't actually even put it together that it was his.
[00:18:44] Nat Sharratt: I just started reading Um, this little booklet that was left out and, uh, uh, which was actually someone's discourse, which is the, the monthly book that people read when they follow him. And I was reading it and I was like, "Wow, [00:19:00] this is exactly what h- like, what I had come to." Like, this is reflecting the truth as I know it.
[00:19:06] Nat Sharratt: Like, this is it. This is what I... And I was like, "Who is-- What is this?" You know? And it was him, and I was like, "Really? Him?" You know? I thought my grandmother was a bit kooky. Apparently, the apple didn't fall too far from the tree, and so I'm a bit on the kooky side also. And that reminds me, uh, in, in surfing, a kook, you know, is...
[00:19:27] Nat Sharratt: That, that's a terminology in, in the surfing world, someone who- Oh. Oh, thank you. That's much appreciated ... doesn't, like, really surf well. And so, you know, I'm kooky in the, in the spiritual sense, but I also, uh, we have a, a little joke in, uh, with some friends of mine where we love to cook and, and we call it, you know, it's The Kook's Kitchen.
[00:19:45] Nat Sharratt: And so we cook amazing food because we have amazing ingredients here. We get fresh fish from, from a friend of mine here, and you get the fresh stuff from the market, and different friends have gardens, and so you [00:20:00] get all, you know, the papaya off the tree and the mangoes, and you just create these amazing dishes here in Puerto Rico.
[00:20:05] Nat Sharratt: So that's a plug for where I live. But I, uh, going back to that story, I just knew that this was something that really resonated with me and I wanted to know more. And the more I learned, the more I got involved, the more I was like, "This is definitely for me, and this is what I want to... I really wanna work with him because I know this is for me and this is, this works and this is workable, and I wanna know who he is and how he does it, you know?
[00:20:36] Nat Sharratt: And, and what's he doing that he, he got this." And so that's how that started and, and I think I even s-started hitting him up for a job when I was still in high school. I was 16. I'm like, "Hey, I wanna do what you do. Like, how does that work?" I was unabashed. Like, I, I didn't have the, the knowledge to actually [00:21:00] hold myself back.
[00:21:01] Nat Sharratt: I just didn't even think anything of it Like, this is what I want to do, so let's go do it. Uh, and
[00:21:09] Andrew Cohn: Well, and, and it's actually a remarkable, powerful theme that you're taking up here. You didn't have the knowledge or you didn't have the restriction or the judgment or the limitation or the ... You didn't take on that restriction, at least before then.
[00:21:22] Andrew Cohn: Maybe you have since. Hopefully not too much. But at the time it was like, uh, you didn't know to, you didn't know to hold yourself back, so you did ... It sounded like you just did what was authentic and you asked for what you wanted. Good for you.
[00:21:34] Nat Sharratt: Yeah. And a lot of my life has been lived that way, and I say that's why it has been unorthodox is it's more of a just if you want to do it, just do it.
[00:21:47] Nat Sharratt: And it was Nike's saying, and I think they kept that saying because it resonated. Mm-hmm. Now that I'm in, uh, also in that design and, and branding [00:22:00] world, I'm not the one actually doing all of that, but I'm involved in it because of the business I'm in. You recognize that, you know, some of these things that come about, like just do it, you know, it resonates.
[00:22:12] Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:14] Nat Sharratt: It-
[00:22:14] Andrew Cohn: Yeah, there's a reason why it's- ...
[00:22:15] Nat Sharratt: so popular.
[00:22:15] Andrew Cohn: Yep.
[00:22:16] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, it's so popular- Yeah ... because i- it does have that message of, well, you just do it.
[00:22:23] Andrew Cohn: And I think what's, what's so interesting is the, for lack of a better term, the simple beauty of not knowing that I'm supposed to hold myself back. I'm just gonna ask for it.
[00:22:33] Andrew Cohn: It's what I want. It's the most natural thing to do.
[00:22:36] Nat Sharratt: Yeah. It, it's ... Life is simple, not easy, and I'm not saying that at all, especially because we complicate it, and I do the same. We all have what is referred to as karma, which is the areas that we're stupid, the areas that we need to learn something, that we have a [00:23:00] lesson.
[00:23:00] Nat Sharratt: And it's not necessarily a mental ... People think that, oh, if I figure it out mentally. That's not usually how the lesson is, and it's more of an experiential and an inner knowing thing when you, when you know it, and you'll see it in the change of behavior. But in the meantime, you know, we have ways that we've complicated it, and you mentioned judgments earlier, and to me that- that's one of the key ways in which we complicate things.
[00:23:27] Nat Sharratt: And if I were to like boil it down, because you mentioned your interest in the essential spiritual message. Mm-hmm. I would say if I were to boil it down in terms of the problems that most people have, it's directly related to where they're not loving parts of themselves.
[00:23:50] Andrew Cohn: And, and just to pick up on that then s- the not loving parts of themselves would be in contrast to judging.
[00:23:56] Andrew Cohn: In fact, it's the opposite.
[00:23:57] Nat Sharratt: Well, loving themselves would be the opposite of [00:24:00] judging themselves, right? Got it. Mm-hmm.
[00:24:01] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So because I'd love to go deeper into this, and, uh, when you talked about your being younger and studying all of these different things, if I were to, if I were to say what-- how would you bucket all of those things that you were studying back in the day that you were hungry for, that you were learning about?
[00:24:17] Andrew Cohn: Perhaps that was your first foray into essential spirituality. The, the commonalities, if you will, the, the... I, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I hear these things, and for me it's like, yeah, that's consistent with this, is consistent with this, with this is this. And it's like, how do we wrap our, not just our heads, but our hearts and our hands around all this wisdom and begin to use it?
[00:24:39] Andrew Cohn: And I just, I see just this bookend between, you know, you're, you're 12 years old and studying these things along with your other 12-year-old friends, I'm sure. It was a very common party conversation. And, you know, and then older, here you are back, you know, zeroing in on, uh, and perhaps even more importantly, applying this essential spirituality.
[00:24:59] Andrew Cohn: I [00:25:00] just, I hear that you discovered it or you pursued it way back when, and now it's, it's what you do and who you are. Is that fair to say?
[00:25:08] Nat Sharratt: That definitely would describe my-- the arc of the journey, and I would say that part of it for me is really becomes the, the element that, that I would address in that is the experiential element.
[00:25:28] Nat Sharratt: And all of the things I was searching for in informationally and looking for the answer, the answer became one not of satisfying the mind, although it did include that. It did include the, the conceptualization of these bigger spiritual ideas. But it became one of the experience first. And [00:26:00] then in trying to describe the experience, and this is what I found as I am moving into the role of the educator of my experience, is that the description of the experience then reflects back to all of those commonalities.
[00:26:19] Nat Sharratt: Uh, because when you start to try to actually explain what it is, then you go, "Wow, that person, I could see how they would describe it that way." And that other person who it might sound very different to someone who hasn't had the experience, you go, "Yeah, I could actually see how you could maybe describe it that way too," because you're trying to describe something, uh, that is not easy by any means to describe.
[00:26:48] Nat Sharratt: And in the, the work that I do now, which involves spiritual counseling, so that's the one-on-one work I do, and then also a lot of the writing work I do, [00:27:00] and just to do a plug, my website is transcend.online, and so you can get to my Substack there, my spiritual counseling. And now I'm rolling out these new events for people, these workshops online, uh, for people to participate in that are live.
[00:27:19] Nat Sharratt: And so if you go to my website, you can find out about those as well. And a lot of the work I'm doing now in all of those different modalities and all of those different offerings is to boil it down to the essential You know, looking at the first principles if you wanna look at it more in an intellectual way.
[00:27:43] Nat Sharratt: But it's like how do you boil it down to the essence so that the number one is the experience, but then how do you deliver the information that gives people the opportunity to the experience in the [00:28:00] most essential way, like, so that you can use it in your life? And especially in this world that I'm finding, uh, people, and maybe it's always been this way, but people want it now and they don't wanna work for it.
[00:28:15] Nat Sharratt: And I think most-- if you look at spiritual teachers, a lot of them have talked about that. Like, people want full-time pay for part-time devotion is, is the saying I heard. And, you know, this-- to get to the simplicity of who you are, it actually takes a lot of work, and the irony is it actually doesn't take any work because you are that now.
[00:28:43] Nat Sharratt: It's just you may have things to let go of, and that process of letting go, the work is in consciousness. It's in being willing to look at those dark parts. I really like the parable that Jesus [00:29:00] talked about the, the prodigal son And looking at that as a framework, more of a psychological framework where that part of us that goes out, that we look at as the bad part, the dark part, the part we don't like, you know, we have to embrace it back as part of us, and we have to accept that part of us, and we have to love and forgive.
[00:29:25] Nat Sharratt: And that, to me, is a lot of what that parable, that parable is, is describing. It's this process of taking these parts of us that we've judged, that we've tried to get rid of, that we've decided are not good enough, and bringing that loving forgiveness and compassion and empathy and welcoming them back. It doesn't mean that those parts have to run you.
[00:29:49] Nat Sharratt: It doesn't mean like, oh, I've had a, a gambling problem, and so now I'm just gonna accept that and go gamble. It's not, it's not in that [00:30:00] field, but it is in the field of, of accepting what is underneath that, what is the driver of that, what is the part of you that, that you are giving over to, and then accepting that part of you that gives over and forgiving yourself for that and bringing that greater loving of who you, who you are, both the goods and the bads.
[00:30:20] Nat Sharratt: And that takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of consciousness and, and work, but not in, not in necessarily like a book work, not in like a taking a test work. It's, it's the kind of work that, uh, is a more natural work. It's the kind of work that I do, and I think that it's, it's really relevant in business as well, as business and leadership and relationships and all of it, you know, because it also speaks to your consciousness and it speaks to your level of communication with others and how you relate to others
[00:30:56] Andrew Cohn: One important, uh, I don't wanna say concept doesn't do it [00:31:00] justice, but one important thing that you talked a couple times is this notion of forgiveness.
[00:31:04] Andrew Cohn: How do you typically invite people into this conversation about forgiveness? You were talking about the impact of judgments and the undoing of judgments is forgiveness on the simplest level, if that's a fair way to say that. The sort of untying, if you're unknotting, uh, if you will. And how do you invite people into that conversation or to that, uh, exploration, especially if they don't have any experience with that?
[00:31:30] Andrew Cohn: Because you talk about these things very simply. It's very practical. It's very simple. I can imagine in an initial conversation with someone you might talk about this thing, this very important thing of forgi- of judgment and forgiveness. How do you invite people into that in a way that they are more likely, we can't control anybody, God knows, but they're more likely to give themselves over to an experience or try something new?
[00:31:54] Andrew Cohn: Because as you said, it is about having experiences and not simply trying to work through concepts. I'm [00:32:00] curious to know, do you find that there's resistance? I mean, there, I'm sure there is. What's the form of that, and how do you just kind of grease the wheels a little bit for people to be willing to step into some of these, like you said, potentially dark places or places that are perceived that way?
[00:32:15] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, it's a really good question of how, how do you relate these concepts to people in a way where they wanna try it out and give it a shot? Well, the idea of limiting beliefs has become a very popular topic, and letting go of those limiting beliefs. So people are aware that there are things in their life that aren't working for them, where they are actually holding themselves back in some way.
[00:32:51] Andrew Cohn: Could you provide a quick example? Because then you could work through the example as you talk through how you work with people.
[00:32:57] Nat Sharratt: So I could [00:33:00] have a belief about money. There's a few that hi- seem to hit a lot of people. So money and relationships, those are, are definitely like we could, we could do whole workshops and books and series about money and relationships.
[00:33:18] Nat Sharratt: Uh, and so you could have a mindset towards money. You could have a belief that you're not even aware of towards money. You may have picked up, here's one in religious circles, that money is the root of all evil. Money's bad. That money's corrupts you. And so there may be this judgment inside about that.
[00:33:43] Nat Sharratt: You may dig deeper and find that there's something inside that's even deeper than that about me deserving money Or that money represents my value. Mm. And so there, there are [00:34:00] different beliefs that you could have, and there could be different judgments on yourself about that. You know, if you're thinking that, you know, "I'm not good enough," that, that's a judgment.
[00:34:13] Nat Sharratt: And by judgment-- So let's define a few terms because, you know, we're talking about these things and one of the things I find is that if you've been in spaces that are so-called spiritual or working on consciousness and things like that, there's terminology that we start taking for granted, and people go, "What do you mean judgment?"
[00:34:37] Nat Sharratt: Well, I look at judgment is someplace where you have a negative emotion tied to a perception of something, and I look at it as it's held within you, and it could be something about the world, about God, something towards yourself. [00:35:00] You know, because I didn't get the promotion that I'm not good enough or that that makes me a lesser person or lesser value person.
[00:35:12] Nat Sharratt: There's so many things that could be tied into that. But then usually that, that idea has emotional content with it. So you have this idea, this perception that then has emotional content with it that's negative and it's like if it were energy, it just creates this energy block. All of us have had knots in our back and our muscles, and it's like it creates a, a knot in our consciousness.
[00:35:39] Andrew Cohn: Kind of a tight, a tightness.
[00:35:41] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, a tightness. You know, something that-- A- and in relationships, you know, that, that person rejects you and you take it to mean something about yourself And that person does something often based on their [00:36:00] own-- Uh, may not even have anything to do with you, or it has to do with their perception of you, and then you buy into that as meaning something about your value or who you are.
[00:36:13] Nat Sharratt: And that's not to say that we don't all have areas of improvement with our, with our ego, right? With our, uh, mind, emotions, our behaviors. It doesn't say that, you know, that, oh, we're just these perfect beings in terms of our behaviors. You know, all of us have bad habits that we're, that we can work on, that we can upgrade, that we can move into something that works better for us and those in our lives.
[00:36:42] Nat Sharratt: It's really, you know, how we're interpreting things against us in a way that stops us from really being the best of who we are and experiencing the greatest abundance that we can have. And so [00:37:00] those things that block us, I'd say, are the judgments. They often have this negative emotional component to them, and they're like these knots in our consciousness.
[00:37:08] Nat Sharratt: And so doing the forgiveness is like, you know, doing a massage on those knots and it, and releasing, releasing the muscle. You know, it's like releasing it so then it can function better for you so that you have that, that energy isn't being held there. And so that's how I, I look at forgiveness as something that is the way in which it's the method when you recognize that you have a judgment, that you have something blocking you within you, that you have this negative feeling towards yourself or something out there that isn't really working for you anymore.
[00:37:48] Nat Sharratt: It's like, well, how do you deal with that? You know, do you-- can you think it away? I haven't found that you can think away our judgments. You know, sometimes people [00:38:00] will numb themselves with drugs and alcohol, and that's the way they deal with their judgments. It doesn't get rid of the judgment. It doesn't get rid of the blocks in consciousness.
[00:38:11] Nat Sharratt: It just makes you more dull to the fact that they're there, the pain that they're causing you. So pain becomes a great awakener because it shows you the areas where you need to let go of, of the things that are causing that, and often that's stored with a judgment. And so the forgiveness process, once people are like, "Yeah, I want that.
[00:38:30] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, I want to let go of these things that I'm doing that are blocking me or these ways that I'm holding this negative energy or this negativity towards myself that's blocking me from having those things that I, I truly want and experiencing-- it's more of the experience internally that I truly want, to have more joy, to have more loving, to have more ways in which I can enjoy this life inside of me and, and have better relationships."
[00:38:58] Nat Sharratt: And once you get people [00:39:00] going, "Yeah, I would like that," and it's hard, it's not a hard sell. I mean, most of us would like that. Most of us would very much like to have better relationships, to have more joy, to have more fun. And so once someone decides they want that, then it's like, "Hey, why don't you try out the key to unlocking all of this?
[00:39:24] Nat Sharratt: You know, why don't you try it out?" see how it works for you. And to me, that process then becomes when you recognize that or when you go into the dark places or when you're judging yourself or you're being hard on yourself about something or find that you don't like how you're acting towards others, why don't you do some self-forgiveness?
[00:39:49] Nat Sharratt: Or how things are going in life or others are acting towards you, do some forgiveness of your own judgments about it. [00:40:00] And it doesn't mean that you're-- you have to-- definitely doesn't mean you're tolerating, you know, behaviors that aren't supportive and positive for you. It just means that when you walk away from that, you don't want to keep holding on to your judgment because then it'll block you.
[00:40:16] Nat Sharratt: And so to do the forgiveness processes and the simple way, because I love simplicity, is I forgive myself for judging and then whatever it is. I forgive myself for judging myself is not good enough. I forgive myself for judging myself for not being farther ahead in my life. I forgive myself for judging that this is where I am.
[00:40:41] Nat Sharratt: I forgive myself for judging that that means that I'm a failure. And you can keep going with those forgiveness statements and sometimes they may feel like you're just repeating something. So you want to do-- you do want to bring the [00:41:00] sincerity into it, you know, that sincerity of like, I really have the empathy and compassion for myself.
[00:41:08] Nat Sharratt: So you invoke the empathy and compassion for yourself as you do that self-forgiveness and that's the process. And It's amazing, especially if you haven't done that and you haven't been doing that, how that simple way of doing forgiveness can start to shift something inside of you. And that is the key to this, is that it starts shifting so you actually have an experience because if it doesn't work, if it doesn't do it, if it doesn't have that experience for you, then, then what's the point of all-- doing all this?
[00:41:51] Nat Sharratt: But it's amazing how if you can stick to that, that it's-- one of the most powerful things I know is [00:42:00] to tap into that forgiveness. And that's not easy, especially when you feel that someone has come against you and harmed you and, and done things that are unethical towards you. It can be really difficult to bring yourself to let that go inside of you, and that's really what's required in order for you to have the freedom
[00:42:27] Andrew Cohn: Yeah.
[00:42:28] Andrew Cohn: No, thank you for that, for walking us through that. And the way that I sometimes think about this, I'm curious about your take on this, is that it, it could be that someone acted unethically towards me, right? Somebody cheated me, somebody lied to me, somebody did what they did. The forgiveness is not like, you know, I like what they did or, you know, I, whatever my...
[00:42:50] Andrew Cohn: I might not be ready to get to a place, oh, I'm so glad that they did that. But the judgment is I want to let go of the wrongness, the fact that it was wrong, that in the [00:43:00] grand scheme of things, this should not have happened because I know what should have happened. That's my belief system and my judgment is this violated something or so- this is wrong.
[00:43:11] Andrew Cohn: There's a wrongness to it. But if I zoom out, I could look at it go, no, but it was an ethical violation. There was a contract that was breached. There was a b- whatever it might have been. There was a, a harsh behavior. There was something that was truly unkind. Yes. But for me, as I think about this and work through this, the judgment is that it was wrong.
[00:43:30] Andrew Cohn: It should not have happened. That's the judgment piece. Is that aligned with how you describe it?
[00:43:37] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, that would definitely fit into a judgment is, is to have that wrongness which is often called righteousness. Mm. And it can be towards yourself too. Like- Mm-hmm ... I'm a bad person or I'm a good person, looking at it through that filter of I'm wrong and I'm [00:44:00] bad.
[00:44:00] Nat Sharratt: And it can be you can do th- thing-- We've all done, we've all lied, we've all done things that are unethical. I'm not saying that lying's always unethical. I, I know that when you're a kid and you take that cookie out of the cookie jar and you're not supposed to and then you're like, "No, I didn't do it," y- you know, this is- My
[00:44:18] Andrew Cohn: brother did it.
[00:44:19] Andrew Cohn: My brother did it. Yep
[00:44:20] Nat Sharratt: It's a common experience and this is something that we do. You know, it becomes problematic when we take what happens to mean something about us that is negative in a way that doesn't serve us. And so oftentimes when we do go into the wrongness of, of those people and the judgment that it should be different, we take ourselves-- we actually are getting caught into the negativity of it and that's not gonna really assist us in living a more, a life of more joy- Mm
[00:44:58] Nat Sharratt: and abundance and, [00:45:00] and happiness and inner wealth. You may still be able to make a lot of money or have a lot of things, but to actually have the wealth inside to be able to even enjoy those things or to really truly feel at peace inside It's not gonna serve you to carry that, that judgment of the wrongness of things.
[00:45:24] Nat Sharratt: And that doesn't mean... There are people, there are things that happen in this world that are extremely disturbing, and I think that People sometimes go into the spiritual override or something of that nature, and it's like, no, that, that's really harmful to someone. That's really, you know, not something that, that we're going to put up with if we have that option, right?
[00:45:57] Nat Sharratt: It's not something-- And [00:46:00] I could use the, uh, example of being in an abusive situation or an abusive relationship or of some sort or another. I'm not encour-encouraging you to just forget, keep forgiving and staying in that situation where you're getting hurt. You know, that's not what we're talking about here.
[00:46:22] Nat Sharratt: You know, we're talking about you need to take care of yourself. That's a, a key principle. Take care of yourself first, so you can help take care of others. And, and do those things that are self-honoring to yourself, and do those things that are-- that really, truly honor who you are truly. And that's where it gets interesting because when you have to look at who are you truly, you allow the things that aren't honoring to you based on the, the places you don't love about yourself.
[00:46:56] Nat Sharratt: It's a reflection. This world is just a reflection [00:47:00] of how we perceive in our inner state, and our relationships are just reflections because the relationship is being held inside of you. So learning to differentiate, learning to differentiate how you use forgiveness and also how you don't be stupid, you take care of yourself.
[00:47:23] Nat Sharratt: You know, that's, that's a principle. You gotta take care of yourself. You gotta honor yourself. If you truly-- So when we start looking at loving and we look at loving as what is for the highest good, you know, we look at loving as that compassion that is with the suffering and isn't necessarily suffering yourself, but you bring that compassion in, you bring that loving in as something that's for the highest good, it shifts how you look at, at loving.
[00:47:53] Nat Sharratt: It's not just some lovey-dovey talk in a soft voice type of thing. If a car is [00:48:00] coming and someone's in the way and yelling at them or pushing them saves their life, that could be a very loving thing, even though it could be looked at as loud, violent-
[00:48:12] Andrew Cohn: Harsh ...
[00:48:13] Nat Sharratt: harsh, difficult. It's-- But there's a loving and a caring in I'm saving your life, right?
[00:48:22] Nat Sharratt: Anyone who's witnessed or been around something like CPR, it's very traumatic, it's violent, it's breaking people's ribs But at the same time, you're saving their life and it's a, it's a hugely loving action. And so to really start looking at these things that when we're talking about forgiveness, we're not going into some airy-fairy spiritual thing.
[00:48:47] Nat Sharratt: Like this is real. This is real life, real brass tacks. Mm. This is practical. You know, this is being smart with your life and you're doing it to let go of those things that are [00:49:00] not working for you. And people want that. People wanna let go- Mm ... of the things that aren't working for them.
[00:49:05] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Well, yeah, and well, and I hear the w- one thing that you said that I just wanna highlight here is the question, is that working for you?
[00:49:14] Andrew Cohn: And which is a very simple question to ask and a lot of times when my hair is raised, a lot of times I don't wanna hear it. You know, it's a very challenging, very simple question. That's like you're asking me to hold up this mirror and say, "Is what I'm doing or is what I'm believing or is what I'm holding..."
[00:49:30] Andrew Cohn: Another way I can think about it is a judgment is using my energy against myself. Is that working for me? And I s- believe earlier you talked about that's really about consciousness, being willing to look at the dark parts and that's-- not, not everybody's ready to do that. I'm not ready to do, do that. I could say this is a really fascinating idea, maybe next week.
[00:49:50] Andrew Cohn: So but it's like, yeah, it's a, it's a very, very practical, powerful inquiry that is, is really it's, it's, um, kind of by invitation [00:50:00] only, if you will, and, uh, we can invite but we can't shove somebody into this space of you must look at this. It sounds like a dysfunctional relationship, somebody telling somebody else you have to look at this.
[00:50:11] Nat Sharratt: There's something about holding a mirror to yourself and in a business context, in a leadership context, one thing that in the business, the branding and, um, design, advertising business, I have partners and we've been working with a coach, Mark Hariding, who I think you would be wise to have on the show 'cause he's fantastic.
[00:50:36] Nat Sharratt: Uh, but h- he recently, we were looking at and inviting all of us to look at those areas, he calls them the blockers, the things that are, are blocking us personally, those beliefs that block us personally and then as partners. So this doesn't just work in [00:51:00] personal self-help. This is actually part of leadership, and by us actually addressing and discussing our-- the things that our own negative beliefs and things that block us and the things that we see that block the business as partnership It brings to light those things which we've been ignoring, and it's very important to look at those parts, uh, from a business sense too, because they are going to affect your business.
[00:51:35] Nat Sharratt: And so he guided us through that process actually earlier today, and they do affect. You realize, oh, wow, they're really affecting our business. And from an individual perspective, they're really affecting your life unconsciously. And so that's something that I think is, is really important as you look. You know, [00:52:00] obviously no one can be forced to look, but there's also techniques in communication.
[00:52:06] Nat Sharratt: So if you're talking about leadership, there's techniques in communication, uh, such as mirroring would be one, that's a simple one, and other communication techniques which give people that, more of that space. Now I-- when I'm talking about communication, I look for a deeper level of communication, uh, where you really are listening and where people really feel heard, and that there's different levels of listening.
[00:52:38] Nat Sharratt: And, and to listen beyond the words to the essential message that they're communicating beyond the words, and then reflecting what you're hearing back to them in that way. That is something, uh, that is really effective, I find, in leadership, is just being there to caringly reflect [00:53:00] back, and that, that can be something that is extremely effective tool.
[00:53:05] Nat Sharratt: It's funny, you mentioned when we-- before the podcast, you were mentioning you didn't hear any dogs or airplanes, but I don't know if you're hearing this, but there's a whole, like, bunch of dogs having a, having a go at it out there somewhere. I don't know if it's getting through the mic, but it's going. But in Puerto Rico, I live in the country, so you're gonna, you know, on certain mornings you're gonna hear cows.
[00:53:27] Nat Sharratt: The owl's always going. He's going right now. The coquis, the little frogs, they, they start going as the, as the light gets lower. There's always some animal or something going on. So if you hear that, you know, excuse, excuse that. Forgive me. I--
[00:53:45] Andrew Cohn: actually, I'm hearing a tiny bit of it, but no-nothing to speak of.
[00:53:48] Andrew Cohn: But it somehow it just seems to contribute to the natural flow of what you're talking about. And one thing I would just say is as we start to wind this down, I feel like I, I, I need to throw another concept in, [00:54:00] into this, which is what you're talking about. The kind of inquiry you're talking about is a courageous one, and it's also one that, to me, demonstrates a really high level of personal responsibility.
[00:54:10] Andrew Cohn: Like, I'm not-- I, I can't blame somebody freaking anymore It's just not working. It doesn't, blaming doesn't work. It's human, it's misery loves company. I wanna, I wanna commiserate with you. Nat, can you believe that so-and-so did that? But it, it ultimately doesn't work. And to ask the honest question, as you phrased it a f- a few times, "Is this working for you?"
[00:54:32] Andrew Cohn: To be able to really look at that is a demonstrating a really high level of personal responsibility. And to me, that's what leadership is all about. Can't say I'm not willing to look at that question. I think that's poor leadership in a whole lot of ways.
[00:54:46] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, I agree that it's key. And it's cr- it has to be a certain level of courageousness to ask those questions and to look at those things.
[00:54:56] Nat Sharratt: And I, and I also think that there's, in leadership, I think [00:55:00] that people Being able to effectively communicate your vision in a way where people can make it their own, you know, that's something I've been looking at a lot, is, is how do you-- in the leadership I've seen that's the most effective, people create a vision that's really compelling to whoever it's compelling to, to those who'd be there and be involved, and they allow a pathway for people to make it their own.
[00:55:34] Nat Sharratt: In a way, they give away the vision. There's a lot of aspects to leadership, to me, where you're having to give it away. You're giving away the power. The more power you can give away, it's almost like a really great leader can give away power.
[00:55:54] Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Well, and I think that's true both in terms of delegation and authority and whether that [00:56:00] means decision-making authority, financial authority, whatever.
[00:56:02] Andrew Cohn: But also, as I've heard it said wisely, the loyalty that you want in an organization is not a loyalty to the leader, but a loyalty to the mission or a loyalty to the, to the destination, if you will, the shared vision.
[00:56:14] Nat Sharratt: Yeah, and I'll, I'll tag along on that and say the loyalty to who you truly are as a soul.
[00:56:21] Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
[00:56:22] Nat Sharratt: And I'll say it, you know, it starts with the loyalty to ourselves, and when we're clear and in alignment in that way and we're choosing into a situation within a company, within a group of people, 'cause usually you say company, you're talking about people, you're talking about systems, you're talking about a vision, and then, you know, th-there's that aspect where it becomes an ownership aspect.
[00:56:50] Nat Sharratt: And I think what you brought forward a minute ago with the ownership, uh, with the r- having responsibility, there is no [00:57:00] creation without having responsibility, and we are creators. We're co-creators with the divine. We're co-creators with that unconditioned energy. And so as we create, we're responsible for those creations, and the more we actually take responsibility for all things in our lives- the more that we are leading, the more that we are in a leadership position in our lives because the more we can respond to anything when we have and take on that personal responsibility of our creations.
[00:57:40] Nat Sharratt: And also understanding that we're not responsible for-- to make sure that others get their lessons. We actually have the responsibility of giving people that dignity of learning their own lessons in their own ways, and [00:58:00] that's part of the leadership, is to give people enough freedom to grow and learn in the way they are while maintaining the focus yourself of where you're going and being responsible to that
[00:58:17] Andrew Cohn: Yeah.
[00:58:18] Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Which sounds all, sounds very simple, but not easy-
[00:58:21] Nat Sharratt: So simple ...
[00:58:21] Andrew Cohn: as you said. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for this teachings, these lessons, these experiences. I, um, we could go for another couple of hours. You know, I feel like I want to say something like, "I'll meet you, I'll meet you down at the beach," because it sounds so inviting.
[00:58:36] Andrew Cohn: Remind me please the title of the new book.
[00:58:38] Nat Sharratt: Well, the title of the book I was talking about, that's not out yet. But I- I see ... I'm looking to go through the publishing. That, that one is currently titled God Went Surfing, and that's got... I do have, uh, Transcending, and that's on Amazon, The Practice of Spiritual Living, and you can get that.
[00:58:59] Nat Sharratt: Nathaniel [00:59:00] share it. Look, look my name up. You can get it on my website, basically it'll take you to Amazon, which is transcend.online. And you can get my weekly newsletters, my substack, uh, you can get that through my website also. And the events that I'm doing, you know, to, to give people that experience and to really bring into the essential, like what you can walk away with.
[00:59:25] Nat Sharratt: Like we just talked here, people can use the forgiveness statements. They can just walk away from this podcast and you have something that's really effective in your life, and that's something that I look to bring into the workshops. And the key focus is how to use the light. What is the light? Key focus is, you know, how do you love yourself?
[00:59:44] Nat Sharratt: How do you connect with yourself? And forgiveness is a big, a major part of that. And then what is the sound current? What is that essential connection with the spiritual meditation God, and what is that frequency, and how do you [01:00:00] experience? How do you have that experience? And to give people just a few essential tools that they can walk away with that can really make their life, uh, blow up with light and, and love and happiness and, and joy.
[01:00:16] Andrew Cohn: Sounds inviting to me. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. I- Come to the beach. No, I, I, I appreciate- I appreciate the work that you're doing, and it's completely inviting. So, uh, it's-- you've got me thinking about some things, which I appreciate. We'll put, um, a lot of these links in the show notes so it's available to people.
[01:00:33] Andrew Cohn: So if you're driving, don't worry about it. We'll, we'll have it here. Um, thank you so much for being, uh, in this conversation. I look forward to the next conversations. I feel, uh, a little bit wiser, a little bit more challenged in a good way, you know, challenged to do some reflection of certain types with myself, which is great.
[01:00:50] Andrew Cohn: I love those conversations. Now I have to do the work. And just really appreciate your contributions on so many levels, Ned. Thank you.
[01:00:57] Nat Sharratt: Thanks so much. It was really a pleasure, Andrew. [01:01:00]
[01:01:00] Andrew Cohn: Thank you for listening to Spirituality in Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, please subscribe to the show.
[01:01:08] Andrew Cohn: Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. You can go to the site spiritualityinleadership.com or your preferred podcast platform to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of yourself.