The Power Of Developing The Bigger Parts Of Ourselves With Leslie Boyer
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn chats with his longtime friend and mentor, Leslie Boyer, about what it truly means to bring purpose and spiritual awareness into the workplace. Leslie shares her journey, from starting out as a kindergarten teacher to working with high-risk teens, and eventually coaching global corporate teams. Her perspective? Whether you’re five or fifty, people want the same things: to be seen, heard, and understood.
They explore how culture and geography influence people’s willingness to talk about compassion, forgiveness, and purpose at work. Leslie talks about her experiences coaching teams in Germany and India, and how understanding cultural differences helps build trust and opens the door to more meaningful conversations.
They also talk about the power of storytelling, deep listening, and self-awareness, especially for leaders. Leslie explains how tuning into your inner motivations (and checking your ego) can make a big difference in how you lead and connect with others. She calls it “practical spirituality,” which is about making purpose and presence part of daily life, not just something you reflect on in quiet moments.
If you're curious about leading with more clarity and connection, this episode is for you.
Key Takeaways
Leadership is human development. Whether in classrooms or corporations, we all want to be seen, valued, and heard.
Listening is spiritual practice. True listening requires presence, patience, and the humility to set aside personal agendas.
Stories build connection. Leaders who share personal stories cultivate empathy and understanding across teams and cultures.
Presence is deeper than patience. Being fully here and open creates a natural space for others to reflect, grow, and trust.
Spirituality doesn’t need labels. Forgiveness, acceptance, and purpose are accessible values, even in secular or global workplaces.
Culture matters. Effective leadership requires cultural sensitivity — geographic, generational, and organizational.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Introduction and universal human needs
[01:16] Leslie’s background
[03:51] Personal development and passion for practical spirituality
[05:40] Teaching kindergarten and corporate lessons
[07:04] Early teaching experiences and disillusionment
[08:57] Corporate coaching and global work
[09:48] Core spiritual dimensions in the workplace
[11:13] Cultural differences in openness
[11:39] Navigating cultural norms
[13:08] Building trust and credibility
[15:41] Cultural examples: Germany, Sweden, US
[17:50] Storytelling as a bridge
[18:12] The value of sharing stories
[19:29] Listening and asking questions
[20:49] Barriers to listening
[23:03] Learning styles and communication
[24:37] Self-awareness and leadership
[25:49] Holding space and presence
[26:32] Self-reflection and inner work
[30:39] Commitment to growth and healing
[32:12] Trust in something greater
[32:53] Spiritual awakening and practice
[34:16] Purpose and practical spirituality
[36:50] Compassion, teamwork, and new stories
[37:47] Closing and contact information
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Leslie Boyer
Website: https://www.boyershift.com/
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Mentioned
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
Leslie Boyer: I'm teaching big kids. There's a part of us, I think, as humans that has this aspect of ourselves that wants to be seen, wants to be valued, wants to be cared for, wants to be understood, just like kids.
Andrew Cohn: How does geography impact the openness of individuals, particularly in the workplace? To talk about some of these themes like acceptance and forgiveness and peace, and how does that play in different places?
Leslie Boyer: Places you need to demonstrate credibility, and then they're open. It's learning how to be multidimensional in your approach, not just spew it out and then go, here's what I'm presenting and I hope you get it.
Intro: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, hosted by Andrew Cohn. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach, and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I speak with my old friend and colleague, mentor to some degree, Leslie Boyer. Leslie is just a font of information and wisdom in terms of personal growth and learning. She has an extensive background in teaching, evolving from a kindergarten teacher to working with high-risk teens to adults. She has years of coaching in the corporate world, coaching high-performance teams in Germany where she lived for six years. She has worked globally.
She's really just a remarkable resource in terms of what helps people learn. As she says, unleashing human potential and making better choices.
Among the things we talked about were how geography impacts openness to talk about spiritual dimensions, the power of telling our stories to form connection, the impact of really listening, listening. And what's clear is her commitment to self-improvement and helping others improve their own lives, believing in something larger than themselves, and really, as she says, being pulled forward by our purpose.
Wonderful conversation, rich conversation. Hope you enjoy.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership Podcast. I am your host, guide, fellow traveler Andrew Cohn, along with my very special guest, an old friend, Leslie Boyer. Old as in the number of years, not in anyone's age. Not that it matters, which we could talk about as well.
Thank you so much for being with me today.
And just by way of background, I think we met probably 40 years ago or so in an Insight seminar in Los Angeles. Or maybe it was more like 30. I was growing my experience as an assistant and doing some service work. After I did that seminar with you, I assisted in Russia and assisted in Bulgaria and was really inspired to bring some of that wonderful transformational work out into the world.
We've stayed in touch in different ways, and I've always admired the work that you do and the practical, yet, I don't want to say inspirational, but I mean sort of infused with something bigger than the typical business speak. And I aspire to that as well.
So thanks for being one of my teachers along the way and for being here.
This podcast is new, as I shared with you, and I look forward to hearing how you would define some of the things that I've teed up for you and some of the questions I sent. Tell me where it's most important to start, and maybe with a little bit of your background and how it connects to this topic.
Leslie Boyer: Sure. So my name's Leslie Boyer, and I have a small boutique consulting firm. I started out, my background was in personal development. I always knew I wanted to teach, and I started out as a kindergarten teacher. Then I graduated to high-risk teens, positive life skills. Then I moved into working with adults and really looking at the power of purpose, the power of committing to yourself, the power of loving yourself, honoring yourself and others, et cetera.
Then I made the leap into corporate and started working with David Allen, who wrote a book called Getting Things Done, which is a really beautiful methodology for managing workflow that really has a basis. It's very quite Zen, although we don't talk about that usually with the client, but it helps to bring people really present.
I've traveled globally doing all this work, lived in Europe for six years, had a company there, moved back to the US, and now I'm a solopreneur, if you will. For me, it's inherent in human beings to want to do better, be better. So for me, if you call it the spiritual or that aspect of ourselves, integrating that into our day-to-day lives, I just love what I call practical spirituality. It's about how do I make the teachings of the bigger part of ourselves functional and practical on a day-to-day basis.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. I want to hear more about your background and your story, whatever parts of it you'd want to tell. But I need to ask you, how does the experience of teaching kindergarten help you in the corporate world?
Leslie Boyer: Well, I'm teaching big kids. You know, there is a part of us, I think, as humans that has this aspect of ourselves that wants to be seen, wants to be valued, wants to be cared for, wants to be understood, just like kids. I mean, I don't treat adults like kids, but there is an aspect of us that has some of the same needs. Sometimes we overprotect ourselves around that. I don't need anything. But to thrive, we need human connection, human interaction.
For me, working with kids initially was like the vision was unleashing potential in children. When I started teaching, the educational system wasn't built that way. So I got really disillusioned and I'm like, whoa, what? Then I came across Insight Seminars, which really is about unleashing human potential and self-care and honoring yourself and just making better choices in your life. So that's how I sort of made the leap into that.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful.
Leslie Boyer: So initially I got into teaching because I had an experience in high school that made me aware of the power of teaching and how the teacher interacts with the student. So I decided to move to the Georgia–Alabama border and work with deeply impoverished children.
Andrew Cohn: And that was not from whence you came. You were not from there. Where were you moving from there?
Leslie Boyer: No. Originally, you know, we moved a lot when I was a kid, but at that point I was living in St. Petersburg, Florida, finishing my education degree. And I was there, and I'm like, I want to work with these kids. And what I became was a glorified babysitter. It was tough. These kids were in survival mode, and so they weren't in a place to be receptive. And the system, the curriculum, was so minimal that it was just, like I said, glorified babysitting. So I got really frustrated because I had been reading about alternative education and possibility, and none of that was taking place where I was at that time in the educational system.
So I left, dismayed, you know, distraught. Like I thought I had my life purpose, but that's not it. And so I went searching and came across Insight Seminars. And that's where I was working initially with teens, at-risk teens, teaching them positive life skills, and then moved into the adult training and development work and working with people who are pretty good and just want to get better. Because, you know, I realized it's not my job to save people. People have to save themselves. They have to want to change.
Traveled around doing that, then started working with David Allen, Getting Things Done. That was the corporate work. I got into executive coaching, doing productivity development, and traveled globally doing that. Moved to Germany, started my own company with a German partner, was there for six years, got into high-performing teamwork, and relocated back to the States and hung out my own shingle and have been doing my own conglomeration of activities. A foot in the for-profit world and a foot in the not-for-profit world.
Andrew Cohn: Wow. And the journey continues.
Leslie Boyer: It does. It never ends. It never ends.
Andrew Cohn: So one of the hypotheses of this podcast, and I appreciate your help in clarifying this, is that each of us has these core spiritual dimensions. The way I define these core spiritual dimensions is a take, an interpretation on what Ron and Mary Hulnick do at the University of Santa Monica with that core self level below the physical level and the levels of the ego. And these are what I would call universal spiritual principles like acceptance and loving and forgiveness and peace. Perhaps Zen, if we were to check in with David Allen about this.
To your point, the hypothesis part two is that these aspects of ourselves are needed more than ever in the workplace. So I work primarily in the corporate space, sometimes in the not-for-profit. And the invitation, I believe, the opportunity is to bring these deeper spiritual dimensions into the workplace for the benefit of ourselves and our own happiness and productivity and efficiency and effectiveness, but also to invite our teams to do the same and to de-dogmatize this notion of things that might be considered spiritual so that we can have useful conversations. Not conversations about our church experiences, but conversations that demonstrate and practice these levels of awareness and these skills and abilities and mindsets that we have from developing more of these core spiritual dimensions. Does that make sense fairly well?
Leslie Boyer: Works.
Andrew Cohn: And how is it, I wonder, for you, having worked in Germany for example for six years and worked all over the place and you can answer this any way you like but how does geography impact the openness of individuals, particularly in the workplace, to talk about some of these themes like acceptance and forgiveness and peace? How does that play in different places? I have my own ideas about that, but please tell me your experience.
Leslie Boyer: I traveled extensively globally, and one of the things I learned is it's very helpful to have an awareness of the culture where you're presenting, because there are different norms and different values. And I think Americans tend to be myopic. They think the world should operate like they do, think like they do, and like that. They tend to. They're not all, but there's a tendency there. And one of the things that I love is learning about other cultures.
When I was in Germany, I was working with a really big German global organization, and they had affiliates in India. And so I was dealing with cultural differences between India and Germany. That was fascinating, because the Germans are very direct. They don't really care so much how you feel, just what you do. And the Indians want peace at any price. They love harmony. So directness can upset that. So how do you bridge that?
I think it can be useful as a consultant or presenter to at least have some understanding of what you're walking into and meeting people where they are. Because when people feel heard and seen and understood, they tend to open. And then you can go into those kinds of conversations. Most people want to be seen, want to know that you're not trying to change them, that they are being respected for who they are and, most importantly, being heard. I think listening is a highly underrated skill, and deep listening is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone.
So I take that approach. I need to get educated before I go in and start working in Germany. It is vastly different than the American culture. And I live in California. So you take German to U.S., then German to California it's even a wider gap. The Germans tend to be more mental in their approach, and Americans tend to be more emotional. So knowing how to have credence, you have to present in a way that they can go, oh, she knows what she's talking about, he knows what they're talking about.
Andrew Cohn: Credibility.
Leslie Boyer: Credibility. You need to demonstrate credibility. And then they're open. It's learning how to be multidimensional in your approach, not just step, spew it out and then go, here’s what I'm presenting and I hope you get it. You have to meet people where they are, walk with them, and then they can start building trust and open, and then we can go into the broader conversation.
Andrew Cohn: A client of mine, a CEO of a U.S. company that had a partner organization in Germany, used to say to me that in Germany they have an engineering culture, and in the U.S. we tend to have a performing culture, like actors and singers and performers of that type. Maybe an oversimplification, but I hear where he was coming from.
Leslie Boyer: Yeah, that's my experience. It's like I had to go in to most groups like I was talking to a bunch of engineers. And, yeah, they don't care how much you know until they know that you know what you're talking about.
Andrew Cohn: Which is different than what I've heard here, which is they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. But the caring piece may not be as valued, of course, in certain parts. Maybe northern Germany. I was working with a group at Wharton in Philadelphia, and a gentleman stood up and said, I'm from the north of Germany. We have to go to the cellar to laugh. I don't know if that's quite true.
Leslie Boyer: There's East Germany. There are subcultures in every country. But I remember when I went to Sweden to do group work on some group presentation work, and what I realized is that Sweden is a socialistic country. And the whole thing around socialism is equality. You don't want to appear better, and you don't want to appear worse. It's all about homogenizing.
So when I'd say, hey, who has something they want to share, no one would raise their hand because they'd stand out. So what I had to do was, ah, that's cultural. I would then have them get into small groups and talk amongst themselves. Once they did that, and it was a five-day workshop, by the morning of day three, I could go, who wants to share, and then I’d just sit there and not say anything and make a lot of space. Eventually someone would raise their hand.
Whereas in the U.S., you go, who would like to share, fifteen hands go up often or five. Maybe they're engaged that way. So you have to bridge through the culture. Understanding the difference is not bad, it's just different. And I think having that kind of awareness can be immensely helpful. I'm not just talking about global cultures, I'm talking about cultures that people carry individually. Our culture is formed by our family, by our neighborhood, by the state in which we live. We have a really different culture in California than Texas. So it's like being sensitive and, again, meeting people where they are and having an understanding of their innate values. So you can connect, and then you can start to have the deeper conversations.
Andrew Cohn: And I appreciate what you're saying about the willingness of people to share things that are more personal. There may not be more or less willingness, but how you open the door to that can be different. So to be equipped with different tools in your toolkit to allow people to express more of what's important to them.
Leslie Boyer: Often I find the way to open the door is through story. People love to tell their stories about themselves.
Andrew Cohn: This may sound just glaringly obvious, but there's a number of ways to answer this question, I think, and I'm curious how you would. What's the value of people telling their stories, particularly in the corporate space?
Leslie Boyer: It creates connection, bottom line. Because if you get a small group and go, what shaped you as a leader, what were your defining moments or experiences, and if they share that openly and honestly, people start to develop empathy and understanding. Oh, that's why they act like this, or that's why this is so important to them.
So storytelling has been handed down for centuries, and I think it's just as important today. What's your story? Because our stories are formed by perception and belief systems and experience. And so it's an insight into all of that. And part of the work I do is, let's change your story if it's not working for you.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And it's interesting because when I hear you talk about that, what I hear about is the impact. I may not align with you or connect with you as much as if I just hear your conclusions and opinions. But if I hear the story that leads you to those conclusions and those opinions, now maybe, oh, okay. Now I have something I can connect to perhaps a little bit more readily.
Leslie Boyer: Often the first conversations I have, all I do is ask questions.
Andrew Cohn: Which goes back to your point about listening and the key importance of listening.
Leslie Boyer: Most people, when they're in a conversation, are thinking of their answer instead of really listening. I would challenge people to, when you're in a conversation, try only asking questions. Notice how often you want to give advice or fix something or make a point. Just ask questions. Tell me more. What does that mean? Help me understand this. Do you mean…? It's a very powerful tool and most people have not developed that skill. And that is when people feel heard, they feel connected, they open, and the deeper conversation can take place.
Andrew Cohn: I hate to ask a why question, but what is it about us human beings? And maybe there are differences in different regions, of course, and cultures and subcultures. I often like to talk about functional cultures as well. So I was a lawyer in my first life. And lawyer culture is very different than executive coach culture. And we're talking generalities, of course. But why is it so difficult for people to just listen?
Leslie Boyer: Because they probably were not heard as children, so they feel that they need to express. They feel overly responsible for making something happen, for fixing something, for giving advice, for helping. We're not raised in a culture that, at least in the US, deeply values listening and pausing and space. I think it especially can be true with the millennials, but really the Gen Zs I'm noticing, just being on electronic devices, their brains function faster because they're able to process information more quickly. So slowing down is not always easy for them unless they're very intentional about it. And they can, they can slow down. But I listen to their rate of speed when they speak, and they're trying to have their voice keep up with the pace of their mind. There's a quote about people largely speaking to hear themselves speak. They're not listening. They just want to hear what they have to say. And sometimes it's important to do that, but sometimes that will override the conversation.
Andrew Cohn: And when I hear you describe that, what occurs to me is maybe we're not even listening to ourselves. So I want to hear myself speak because I'm not hearing, perhaps even what I'm thinking. I was reading something recently about the speech-thought differential and how we can just think so much faster than we can speak. So as we're listening, we can become disengaged because, okay, you know, come on, get to the point, etc. You want someone's words to you to be as fast as the thoughts in your head, which is not possible because we just think so fast. So our minds tend to drift. I mean, this is a trainable skill. Thank God it's a trainable skill. But our minds tend to go in different directions. And the way you're describing this, and particularly with technology, is how do we address this? How do we teach people to listen, or maybe more accurately, invite them to listen?
Leslie Boyer: Yeah. And also, there is a person I studied with, Frank Soper, who has an organization called Kairos, and he studied how people learn. He broke it down into reading, listening, moving, observing, and talking. And so he has a way of measuring how people learn. Some people are just high talkers. They process information by speaking it out. Other people process information as they read. So you've got to understand it's not one size fits all. Who are you speaking with? What's their dominant mode? And there are some times when I ask a question, and a half an hour later I'm still listening to their answer because they're working it out as they talk it out. Being able to understand that nuance of when does someone really need to talk something through, and when are they just no longer engaged in a conversation because they're just speaking to fill space.
Andrew Cohn: And the former sounds like this is an important thing to do, to get clarity, to let the brown water become clear, to lead to a place that's a better place than before they started either in terms of their own clarity and/or the value it can add to others, etc. Whereas the latter you describe sounds like it's almost more of an indulgence. It's almost more like an unconscious habit that's not really necessarily getting anywhere. I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but does that make sense?
Leslie Boyer: It does. And, you know, for me as a coach and a presenter, my work is to be as clear and empty as possible, so I'm not reacting from my own egoic place, but I hold a container for them. So if they're talking just to talk talk, I may intervene and go, are you aware? Because to me, in leaders, one of the most important qualities of a leader is self-awareness. And most people either overestimate or underestimate their impact on others. And how they see us is different than how we see ourselves. And that's tough for a lot of leaders because it challenges the ego who they think they are. And so in listening, I can start to watch the patterns of their speech and what they focus on. And that becomes a useful springboard for a deeper conversation.
Andrew Cohn: Another dividend of effective listening is what I hear you talking about. Very cool. So when you talk about the holding space, the listening, the allowing for and this is my word, not yours allowing for clarity to emerge as a result of talking one's way through to clarity, to me, what you're demonstrating at those times is operating from that deeper place because you're listening with a mindset of acceptance and caring, patience as well. I'm curious to know, what is itI know we're pivoting here a little bit but what is it that you do or don't do that helps you operate from that place? At a very practical level, what helps you show up as that more open vessel for people?
Leslie Boyer: Constantly checking what my agenda is, which comes out of my ego and my identity of how I like to be perceived or who I think I am. For years, I self-reflect and I also get feedback. It's like, why did I say that that way? Did I want recognition, to be seen, approved of? Did I want to look smart? Did I want to have a sense of control over what was going on? What is my deeper motivation in my communication and what I'm doing? And when you mention patience, patience is interesting because patience means you need to wait for a future event. You know, there's something in the future that it's not happening now, and so you've got to be patient. I look at patienceI define it a little differently. It's simply presence. It's simply being present. When you're fully present, there is no impatience, there's no future. You're just here now and you're responding clearly and cleanly to what's being presented in this moment without an agenda of, oh, I need to control. And that doesn't mean that there are times when I'm working with people, I go, you know, we need to shift this conversation. I'll redirect it, but I'm doing it from a perspective of how am I serving this person? Is what they're doing serving themselves? So it's in service to a greater opportunity, a piece of awareness that could really serve them.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. So when I hear you describe what it is that you do, I hear just a real strong curiosity and courage to kind of shine whatever light it is for you, as you may see it, to these parts of yourselves and checking in with yourself. That's what I'm hearing. Combined with an intention to serve, to looking inward to see how you can be here and looking outward to see how you can best serve and support. Does that seem to fit?
Leslie Boyer: Yeah. And it's been a lifetime of work to get here. This is not an overnight one and done. It's a constant self-check, self-evaluation. And in doing that, I've really learned to trust my inner guidance. My intuitional hits. You know, someone will say something and a word will like pop out and I'll say huh and so I'll reflect that word. But tell me more about that. And most of the time it leads to a deeper conversation. So I, as the coach, as the presenter, need to take full responsibility for my inner environment, my inner awareness around my agendas, my attachments, my ego, and work with that to minimize that impact. And it's not like destroy my ego, but be aware of how it plays and then course-correct as I go along. And I do that through working with a lot of meditation to just really clear and let go and different techniques that I do to keep my consciousness moving forward and being clear.
Andrew Cohn: And I hear not just the value that could add in facilitating a conversation or teaching or presenting, not only, which is of course huge, but also modeling what that looks like in front of a room and perhaps inviting people to do some of the same. If someone were to ask you, and I'm sure many people have asked you over the years, how do you even start to activate this kind of curiosity and courage about what's going on inside of me and my ego and whatever story I'm running and whatever fears that may be showing up in inconvenient and inopportune ways? Where do I even get started for that type of reflection so that I can listen better and be more present? How do you advise them or talk to them about that?
Leslie Boyer: Well, a couple of things come to mind for me. One is the first step is to commit. In my teen years, I knew there was something greater than what was going on around me happening in life. And I got very curious and I was really committed to what is this thing, I don't even know what it is. And committed to this path of I want to become the best person I can. I want to undo or heal the pain, the trauma, the self-doubt, the self-judgment. That is no fun for me, but I do it. And so I made a commitment in my late teens that I am going to heal and I'm going to do whatever it takes. So it takes commitment and it takes great courage because most people shy away from their pain instead of going, what is the gift in this? What is the learning in this? So everything I look at, what is the learning? I think you mentioned that. If I can approach it, what's the learning instead of what's the disaster? Behind all of that is learning. And it's always positive for me when I go in and face those deep dark places of myself. But it also requires trust in something greater than myself is there to support me.
Andrew Cohn: And I would submit that perhaps that is some sort of spiritual framework. It's something larger than yourself. We don't have to call it spiritual, but it's something metaphysical. It's bigger than us. I think Martin Luther King said that the planet will change when the power of love becomes greater than the love of power. And as I hear you describe your process, journey a little bit, I hear you saying that the trust in something greater, the trust in what's with you or in you is greater than the fear or the doubt or whatever may be that all of us humans carry around, that what's driving some of these behaviors or thoughts that don't necessarily serve us.
Leslie Boyer: Yeah. And you know, this may be edited, but when I was a teen, I got into experimenting with drugs. And in high school, LSD was the drug of choice. And on the weekend, one weekend, my friends all got together. I had to be with my family. Monday morning we're back at school and they're all like, we saw God in a candle flame. I just went, I want that. I want whatever that is. How am I going to find God in a candle flame? And so that was my first opening to there is something bigger, something greater. And then I started exploring a bunch of spiritual paths, mostly Eastern mysticism. And it took me a little time. And then I found a spiritual teacher that has a very specific spiritual practice of meditating and service and loving and forgiveness. And I went, ah, I need that. So that's what I'm going to participate in. And just the ongoing practice has transformed me and my experience of myself.
Andrew Cohn: My own life and the work that you do out in the world, in serving so many people in so many different ways. And thank you to those high school friends for the value that they provided to so many of us.
Leslie Boyer: Yeah, and I often think of myself as an undercover mystic. Like I'm a spy going into not enemy territory, but the unknown territory when I'm going into corporate. Because I don't usually openly share what I just shared with you. And there are ways to talk about it. It's like purpose. Purpose is huge. And most people, it's amazing, do not have a clear purpose. Something that's a higher calling that pulls them forward in their lives. Instead of reacting to what's happening and reacting to the past, which a lot of people are, they're being pulled by their future. You know, the future state and creating that as they go from a really positive, inspirational point. And to me, that's just as spiritual.
Andrew Cohn: As meditating and perhaps more so. I know that. I mean, I've heard Dan Harris of the 10% Happier podcast and his book Timbers and Apperts talk about the purpose of meditation is not to be a better meditator. The purpose of meditation is to do whatever it is we do out in the world, or whatever we're called to do, to do it better and more clearly and make better decisions, etc. So, no, I love the way you're putting that. That's lovely and practical. What a great combination. Lovely and practical.
Leslie Boyer: Thank you. Like I said, my calling is practical spirituality. I love the mystical aspect of all of that and have had some beautiful mystical experience. But if it doesn't function in the world, especially the Western world, unless you're going to go sit in a mountain in India, you know, it's like, it's got to be practical. It's got to be functional. How do you make loving a practical reality? How do you make forgiveness and understanding and tolerance and acceptance? So people have very differing points of view. To me, there's so much divisiveness happening on the planet right now that the call is to step into maybe not agreeing, but at least understanding that people are doing the best they can at any moment with what they're dealing with. And all the positioning is based on pain, not on loving. And having understanding for that doesn't mean you have to participate with it, but at least you don't condemn them for it. You don't judge them for it. You go, they are walking their path, learning what they need to learn in their own timing. And then how do you corral a team who have differences? How do you work with that? You lift them, help them rise to a higher perspective with themselves, with each other. And a lot of that has to do with undoing the stories they've told themselves and creating new stories.
Andrew Cohn: I so appreciate the way you're bringing compassion and openness to a practical place of healing and application and doing and being better. Thank you. That's lovely. I feel like we could talk for another hour or two and maybe we can. And maybe it'll be over a glass of California wine somewhere. And I would love to continue this conversation in some form. But what I would ask you just as we close quickly here, although we can take our time, we don't have to close quickly. How do people learn about the work that you do? Where can they reach you? Let's do a little bit of a plug here, please.
Leslie Boyer: Oh, thank you. This is my approach to marketing, which is very unusual. I kind of give it up to the higher power, saying bring to me what's mine to do and what isn't mine, let it pass me by. Now the good news is I've been in the world of corporate and at large for a number of decades, so most of my work right now is referral. But if you want to check me out, go to boyershift.com. That's my webpage. It was the webpage. I need to update it. I think it's more oriented towards coaching, although it has some of the group work that I do. And I do both. I do individual coaching, I do executive coaching, I do team coaching and I do workshops developing the soft skills, which I really think are the hard skills. People skills, listening and dealing with conflict, etc. So boyershift www.boyershift.com.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom and thank you for your friendship. And the conversation continues.
Leslie Boyer: Thank you for inviting me. Really great questions, wonderful conversation and thank you for your work in getting this idea, this aspect, this focus out into the world of business.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you.
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