Meaning-Making Machines: How Business Can Fuel Purpose and Connection, with Naren Balasubramaniam
In this thought-provoking episode of the Spirituality in Leadership Podcast, host Andrew Cohn sits down with Naren Balasubramaniam, a healthcare executive and founder of Metamorphix, a public benefit corporation tackling childhood mental health. Naren brings a refreshing perspective to the conversation, viewing spirituality not just as a human experience but as something deeply connected to all of life. He talks about how the illusion of separation holds us back and how true leadership should be about bringing people together, helping them uncover their purpose, and creating space for real connection.
Throughout the episode, Naren also shares the mission behind Metamorphix: using data-driven tools to bridge the gap between healthcare and education and ultimately support kids facing mental health challenges. He opens up about his path, the power of surrender, and the role trust has played in both his professional and spiritual evolution.
This episode is a powerful reminder that business isn’t just about numbers. It can be a platform for meaning and service. Naren challenges conventional success metrics and encourages leaders to build organizations that prioritize care, purpose, and impact.
Key Takeaways
Spirituality Is Not Just for Humans: Naren redefines spirituality as life itself, an interconnected field that transcends identity and ego.
Leadership Begins With Inner Evolution: You can't help others reach their potential if you're not evolving toward yours.
Organizations as Meaning-Making Machines: Business can do more than deliver earnings. It can deliver purpose if we design it that way.
Knowing Your Team Means Knowing Their Humanity: Real inclusion requires curiosity, context, and courageous connection.
From EBITDA to Empathy: Operational success is not incompatible with spiritual service. It's incomplete without it.
Mental Health is a Spiritual Crisis: Metamorphix addresses the disconnection driving teen mental health challenges through data-informed, compassionate intervention.
In This Episode:
[00:55] Podcast introduction and host welcome
[01:27] Guest introduction and episode overview
[04:42] Naren’s background
[06:28] Defining spirituality beyond human experience
[09:19] Spirituality’s role in leadership and inclusion
[10:48] Leadership as enabling human potential
[13:31] Challenges of caring in organizational leadership
[15:50] Spirituality in organizational design
[16:38] Organizations as meaning-making machines
[18:43] Personal purpose and Metamorphix
[19:34] Metamorphix: Mission and approach
[21:41] Technology and data in childhood mental health
[22:23] Personal growth and integrating experiences
[23:44] Bridging healthcare and education for children
[25:39] Addressing disconnection and youth mental health crisis
[27:34] Spirituality, service, and societal good
[28:20] Readiness for purpose-driven leadership
[31:04] Surrender and trust in leadership
[32:49] Spirituality beyond career constructs
[33:51] Closing and how to connect
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Naren Balasubramaniam
Website: https://www.metamorphix.co/
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
Naren Balasubramaniam: For me, my full potential is to be able to experience existence as part of me, right? That's where spirituality comes in. And that might mean different things to different people.
Andrew Cohn: I hear you talking about the role of leadership. Well, and in business, where you're talking about this role definition, operational goals, and how we measure success. All of those things are very IT things. They're very impersonal things. Whereas leadership, I suggest, is much more personal.
Naren Balasubramaniam: It is not me-centric. It's not about what I want, what my needs are. How do I contribute to the whole, right? It is about mission alignment. It is about vision alignment. It's about the ability for you to connect everybody's tasks and roles and the playground things, the hits on how it is enabling? What is the line of sight on enabling the mission?
Intro: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast hosted by Andrew Cohn. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach, and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Cohn, and I'm really pleased to share with you my interview with my client and friend, Naren Balasubramaniam. Naren is a healthcare executive for many years. Originally from India, has lived and worked in multiple continents and now lives in Tennessee, here in the United States. And he shares about his experience and views about spirituality and also about leadership and also some of what he's working on right now is a way to bring those two areas of his life together. He talks about his definition of spirituality as about all life, not just centered on the human experience. What he called the connective tissue, about the role of leadership to make people feel like they belong in an organization, to highlight a broader calling to help others find their purpose and potential and enable them to achieve it. And he asked the question, do I care enough as a leader to do that? Do I really know who's on my team? Not just their job, but all of them as people? And he says, we'll often miss this because businesses are generally focused on short term earnings and EBITDA and reaching key outcomes.
But are we really designing roles that include caring and dimensions of caring, and how do we do that as leaders? How can we make it realistic for a leader to have a truly broad span of caring, as he called it, and he talked about the opportunity for businesses to be meaning making machines, which I think is very, very powerful way of framing the role of business and also connects so well with what we talked about here on this podcast. He laments that humanity has become distanced. People have become distanced from one another, which contributes to a variety of maladies, including mental illness in children. And that led him to found an organization called Metamorphix, which is a public benefit corporation he started, and the mission of that organisation is to create equitable access and intervention around childhood mental health. They work with school districts using data analytics to drive insights, informing equitable access, identifying and addressing needs, and helping children live richer lives. And yes, the challenge is to make a business like this commercially viable while delivering societal good, which he has committed to do and, as he said, expand his contribution into the world.
So I hope you enjoy the podcast interview as much as I did. Look forward to any feedback you might have. Naren Balasubramanian, welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast. I am really, really happy and excited to have with us today Naren Balasubramaniam, Executive in Residence at Bon Secours Mercy Health in Tennessee and founder of Metamorphix. Just a fascinating man who I've had the pleasure of meeting when he first came to Wharton to participate in the general management program. And he could speak to that if he chooses. But I was fortunate enough to be able to work with him there. And welcome to the podcast, Naren.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Thank you so much, Andrew. First of all, let me thank you for deeming me to even share my perspective and be on your podcast. It's a privilege knowing you and I, as you said, we have a bit of a history for the last year. You and I have worked on things together, and you have helped inform a lot of choices and approaches that I have made in life. So it's a pleasure to be a part of this.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. Thank you so much. You are so deemed, whatever that means. If there's a certificate, you know, I'd be happy to sign it and say whatever that means. And thank you for your openness as a leader and what you've taught me as well, in addition to what you're teaching me about some of what you're working on now, which maybe we can get to in this podcast. And when I first told you about this podcast, it seemed like you were a bit energised, excited. You had a point of view about some of what we were talking about in terms of the connection between the spiritual dimensions, the core spiritual dimensions of us as human beings and leadership right now at this point in time, and how it can be so useful to bring those parts of ourselves into work in your experience. I mean, I could ask you a number of questions and you know me, I don't script these things ahead of time. But for you, what have you seen over your career in terms of this intersection of spiritual dimensions of leadership and just you as a person, because your background is a little bit different, being in executive residence in Memphis, I'm sorry, is it Memphis or Nashville?
Naren Balasubramaniam: I live in Collierville, but the suburb closest to the closest city is Memphis, right?
Andrew Cohn: That's what I thought.
I just want to get that right–in Memphis. So you may not be the typical Memphis guy or even the typical Bon Secours Mercy Health guy, but I'd love to hear about your experience with this and what you'd want to bring to this conversation.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Absolutely. As you were talking about these last few minutes, you made a reference to spirituality as human beings. To me, that kind of draws my attention. So let me let me tee in. There is so we ascribe spirituality to be associated with human beings. And I tend to challenge that. It's about life. It's about existence and spirituality. I don't center it on just the human experience. I see it more as existential. It's about life. Whether it is, you know, the beings around us, the trees and the squirrels and the flowers around us, as well as we as human beings. That connective tissue is my basis of relating to what spirituality is so glad to be a part of it. I guess just on that notion. I'm going to say this.
So it's me. Me and me alone. Why this? You and me? It's me. Me and me alone. Why this? You and me? Why this is why this? You and me.
Andrew Cohn: So why are we here at this time?
Naren Balasubramaniam: No. Why is this sense of separation? That you are you and I am I. It's me. Me and me alone. Why do you and me? This is a poem from one of my spiritual guides. And I read this poem or listened to him about 15, 18 years ago. And this keeps resonating. It is that sense of separation that is from my cultural bearings. That is what we call Maya or illusion, that we are different from each other. That's the centrality of how I associate. It's not spirituality in human beings or spirituality and leadership, but the notion of what spirituality is. So I'm just going to take a pause to see if you have any inquiry on that.
Andrew Cohn: No. Well, I have lots of inquiries on that.
I'm trying to decide what would be most useful for whoever might be listening to this. And I'm totally, you know, it's you, it's me, it's nature. I'm looking at the horses behind you. And I think about the horses that we work with here in Santa Fe and absolutely and, and for purposes of these podcast conversations what does that mean in terms of leadership? How can we channel or funnel or focus that broader dimension of spirituality into leadership? And does it have value? And I don't mean that rhetorically, I guess. I mean, what is the value? How does it help us accomplish our individual goals, our collective goals, our business goals? How does it support others as we're in leadership roles? How can you take this grand, impossible to possibly contain notion of spirituality that you're describing and come into an office.
Naren Balasubramaniam: To the point that I made earlier? It's a journey. One is to intellectually say what I said, but experientially living those are two different things.
And there is a clear difference between those two. And my own spiritual journey or my path is really how do I start experiencing that versus intellectually relating to that? Now, what does that really mean when I talk about the separation is really around boundaries. You know, when we talk about today's priority in humanity. Across the world is inclusion. And how do you make people feel that they belong in the workplace, in the organization, whether it's bonds or mercy, health or any aspect of an organization or institution? It is that inclusion. So how well do we manage? How well do we express ourselves to separate people out versus make them feel they belong? That's the boundary management that is central to how you see or how you relate to spirituality. Now, if we are able to inch towards that sense of, I'm able to experience people around me as me and their needs, this can be controversial. The way you interpret it and the lengths that you are coming at. I mean, we use many of the cliche references in training and development and workshops is the golden rule of do unto others as you expect others do unto you.
And how do you look at respect from the lens of respect from your perspective, through the lenses of your own cultural upbringing versus that of the others? Right. So these are things that we use to convey the aspect of respect. But the broader calling is about two aspects, right? Leadership. For me, leadership fundamentally comes down to, first of all, I as a human being, am I evolving myself to the fullest extent of my potential? Right. For me, my full potential is to be able to experience existence as part of me. That's where spirituality comes in. And that might mean different things to different people. Right. Then, if that's my individual journey, then as a leader within organizational terms, then you are leading people, right? Fundamentally, at a very basic level. Are you able to help others find their purpose? Find their potential. And how do you enable them to reach their potential? And that's part of an inclusive act. You know, then we talk about retention and engagement.
If only we are able to connect to that. One thing about do I care enough? As a leader, think about all that needs to happen for me to care for a human being and help them or enable them to reach their human potential and understand their purpose in their being. Which basically means you need to know. You need to know who's in your team, not just by the job descriptions that are written. Are they doing the duties? But they bring in themselves. And what is that self? What is the social context? What's the cultural context? What is the familial context? Right. You know, how do you know? But we are living in a time in our society where there is a lot of political correctness too, you know what you ask people? What you don't ask people. Where is a line where it is a sincere curiosity to know no more about a human being than being politically incorrect.
Andrew Cohn: Well, I hear you talking about leadership is helping to lead people on their journey or be part of the leadership team.
And I know that you are the leader on their journey, anyone's journey, any more than a particular leader that you've worked with or under or for, is your singular. But to lead them and be part of their journey. And in order to do that, you need to know them. And that's the inclusion piece, right? Am I hearing that right?
Naren Balasubramaniam: Yeah, that's the fundamental aspect, which I think largely we are missing because the way When we look at the value created by an organization, most of the time in the capitalistic society that we live in, it's on dollars and cents. It's about EBITDA, it's about operating margin. It is about spans of control. It's about ratios of how many people a leader can manage. Right. So there is the distinction of being a manager who is just task oriented, assigns duties, makes sure results are met or key outcomes are met, is one thing. Where is the capacity? Do we design leadership roles? Where do you actually budget for knowing the human being and caring for them and helping them evolve the people's leadership component? How much of that is baked into, you know, roles? It's an organizational design challenge.
It is a leadership role, definitional challenge. And then a capacity opportunity is how much do we intentionally create these designs, which allows or makes it realistic for a leader to have a span and spectrum of people that they can truly care about and help evolve.
Andrew Cohn: Well, yeah. And I hear you talking about the role of leadership. Well, and in business, where you're talking about role definition, operational goals, how we measure success. All of those things are very it things, the very impersonal things. Whereas leadership, I'd suggest, is much more personal. But all of these places you're speaking about and you can share from your experience as operations leads and strategy leads and HR leads, you've designed roles, you've built organizations, you've you've written job descriptions and systems of job descriptions. Is all of that? IT stuff, in my view, is simply the playground. There's nothing spiritual about a job description or operating margin target or something like that anymore. There's something spiritual about traffic or climate change or potholes.
But how do we operate within these spaces? How do we invite people to navigate challenges? How do we work together as we encounter whatever it is we're dealing with or try to reach whatever business goal? So. And I mean, how much can you bake anything, quote unquote spirituality into a job description and what you want to do?
Naren Balasubramaniam: Actually I'll challenge you because it's not just an IT and a playground. Right. The question is, okay, what is spirituality in a different way? Is that the sheer acknowledgement that you are part of a larger whole? It is not me, me, me-centric. It's not about what I want, what my needs are. How do I contribute to the whole? It is about mission alignment. It is about vision alignment. It's about the ability for you to connect everybody's tasks and roles and the playground things that it's to. How is it enabling? What is the line of sight on enabling the mission? So I have been fortunate to work in faith based institutions and secular organizations.
My definition of secular is very different. For me, secularism is an all inclusive faith and non faith. Believers and non-believers of any kind are secular. But I think there is a notion that secular means it's no faith. I don't subscribe to that. Right. But the faith based organizations probably provide a far more concrete way of identifying with a larger whole, which is informed by, you know, the type of faith, whether it's a Catholic organization or if it's a Hindu mission. It drives different emotions and different identification with what is a larger whole. So it can be both. It's a question of how do you stitch it together? And on a day in, day out basis, how were you able to identify every individual employee or associate or a team member? Finding meaning it's a meaning-making process. So then, then this other aspect of my own experiences. Organizations are meaning making.
Andrew Cohn: Environment means Machines.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Meaning making machines. The right to how effectively we are able to mean help.
Meaning make with every activity for every employee connecting to the larger whole. I think that's part of driving spirituality. I mean, you can never drive spirituality, okay, there's the wrong choice of words, but it's about enabling or getting the sense of a larger whole.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And just to pick up on that–so if it's about maybe not driving but facilitating or helping to promote or opening a door or something for a quote unquote spirituality in this case, just to put a little bit of framework on this spirituality here then, is about meaning. It's about growth. It's about development, it's about personal evolution. Are those fair words to use?
Naren Balasubramaniam: And once Human potential.
Andrew Cohn: 1 Human potential. Which reminds me a little bit. Would you be willing to share a little bit about what your individual purpose is? Because I remember when you did some work on that and some of our conversations, I think it related to human potential. Did it not?
Naren Balasubramaniam: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is. It is about enabling human potential for myself and for others, which is where Metamorphix comes into play, which is there's a very sheer focus around enabling children to live a life to their fullest potential.
And clearly, given the state of teen and adolescent mental health in the country. So the focus on Metamorphix is to really tackle mind, body, spirit, mind as a starting point. Mental health, you know, how do you create equitable access for early detection and intervention of mental health needs among K through 12 kids? That seems to be very aligned to my life's purpose and my passion. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: And could you just say a little bit about how Metamorphix works, what it's offering is or it's.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Yeah it's, it's in an early stage. It's a public benefit corporation. Right. And let me kind of connect a couple of things like you and I got associated through my Wharton journey. And again for me that was kind of boundary management expanding my boundary and my sense of identity of what places I play and what skills do I develop and how I exercise. What came out of that is really the Wharton conversation. Great professors ultimately came down to value being a return on investment or IRR.
I cannot reconcile with that. I got to see a human value coming out of that or a societal value coming out of that. So a lot of deliberations. But Public Benefit Corporation is, by design in its charter, committed to creating societal good. But my passion is creating societal goods in a commercially viable manner through products and services. So it's about the PBC that I've created. And, we went through a very systematic discovery process. One thing is to say that, hey, I think I want to have a solution and people are going to buy it. One way to do it is like, okay, you identify a problem area that you're very passionate about and then go out and talk to people. And that's what I did. I just went out and spoke to a whole bunch, a couple of dozen people, stakeholders in the ecosystem around mental health and healthcare and schools are where we have the aggregation of all the kids, and it provides some systems and processes on early detection. So I spent a lot of time with school district superintendents and multi-tiered systems of support, intervention services, deans and all of that.
So we are working on solution and partnership with a couple of school districts who have been early adopters, who have kind of embraced the idea of using data analytics to drive insights that help inform how to implement measures that enhances equitable access of understanding mental health needs, and what type of interventions need to be put in place so we can help children through their evolution and help them live a more wholesome life.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And there's technology that's in service to that mission.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Yeah, absolutely. So it is a I in today, you know, conversation goes without talking about ChatGPT AI machine learning. So I'm not really talking from that sense. But it is really about insights driving insights and actionable insights. So AI is part of it. Machine learning models are going to be part of it, but it's a huge technology play in it.
Andrew Cohn: And so for you, what is the connection between Metamorphix and the broader spiritual landscape for you. So a subjective question.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Oh no no no no. It is just really about me. If I, if I look at my career, you know, we briefly spoke I, I was raised in India.
I grew up there. I got married there, and I had my first job. And if I just think about my own career journey, personal journey is just really about I've gotten comfortable with not being comfortable, which is my growth has always been about pushing my boundary testing. What else can I do? How else can I expand my horizon? Where else can I contribute? How can I integrate things and make it accretive? It's not that these are separate chunks of life experiences, but you know, how do you accrete those experiences being part of different cultures, different countries, different functions, different organizations, but stitch it together that as I grow to where I am, is that the way I'm able to add value is a multiplier effect of all of those, right? So for me, it's a huge challenge when we talk about the state of mental health for teens and adolescents. We do have a healthcare industry very well established in its size. It's a science of treating mental illness. There are serious workforce shortages there.
There are serious reimbursement issues there. Their models are very different. Schools are deeply entrenched with the way things have worked there, and they have systems and processes. There are certain ways. So the biggest complexity here is bridging the divide between or making meaningful connections and nexus between the healthcare industry and the school district to focus on the human being in the middle. The future of the human generation, children and how to help them overcome that mental health needs or address those mental health needs. So this is not for the faintest of hearts. So for me the personal growth maximizing my potential is my ability to convene like minded people, stakeholders and create a solution, make it commercially viable, right, yet really deliver on the societal good. You know, if there is a job, if there is a traditional box and then there is a job, and I predictably know what I do every day and day in and day out, that's not for me. For me, it is really about getting into uncharted territory, whether I have the expertise or not, if I'm able to convene people with the right expertise.
But I have what it takes to kind of connect the dots and do something that I've not done before. For me, that is like expanding my potential and how I contribute to society at large. And so it's personal and it's not personal.
Andrew Cohn: Well, it's personal, but it's broad. It's other oriented. Its service is what it is, and services personally rewarding and personally motivating. But it's not about you. If I may say, and you're not doing something uncharted for the sake of the uncharted, you're doing something uncharted because there's a need that you see needs to be addressed for the greater good.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Absolutely. So the scary scenario, I mean, it connects to the spirituality conversation is just how humanity has become distanced from each other. Right. And I don't want to get into causality and all of that because I'm no expert in it. But at least published literature and facts within the United States show that 50% of lifetime mental illness sets in by the time a child turns 14. But for us, it takes 11 more years before we can detect and intervene.
So in that time, lives are lost. Right. The second leading cause of death among teens and adolescents and even up to age 32 is suicide. So it's a disconnect, right? It's a disconnect to a place where a human being chooses that it's no more worth living, and they choose to take the only life they've got in their lives. Right. And what worse situation can we be in? In the context of spirituality, where it's me, me and me alone, why do you and me separate right from. There is no identification with a family or an ecosystem or another human being that can actually help these kids. So those kids, in whatever set of circumstances, choose to do what they are doing is taking their lives, being the second leading cause. So it's a dichotomy, but it is so pertinent to this conversation that maybe there is a lack of spirituality or lack of connectedness in our human experience today that is leading to what is happening around us. And that's where this becomes germane for me, is what Metamorphix wants to focus on.mAnd what I want to focus on is Germany.
Andrew Cohn: You could say here that Metamorphix is about making those connections between the healthcare system and schools to facilitate the data gathering, participation, treatment plans, as I understand. So. Right. It's about bridging that and that sense of isolation you speak of with teens and others. What's interesting is I'll take a step back. You could describe that as something spiritually related. This is an example of something where some people would look at this and say, no, it's just not right. It's something we want to fix. It's something we could do better. Other people say, therefore, that would make it spiritual. It's about the highest good, whatever. And to me, whatever drives you to do something positive and good in your life, I don't care what you label it. Yeah, exactly. And if there's a god, I don't think she cares what we label it. The question is, what are we doing? So I appreciate that.
28:20 A question I'd like to ask you though, because it's not necessarily a yes or no. There's more to it. But I think you talked about your career leading you up to learning something every step along the journey. Could you have moved into the uncharted area of Metamorphix 20 years ago in your career? And if you couldn't? I'm curious to know what was missing or what you needed to learn or experience that. So now you can say, I see this need, I can move, I can launch my ship out towards Metamorphix.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Great question. Perspective, right? Life experiences, the roles that you've been in, gives you a perspective and kind of helps make you who you are. There's one person back in Michigan, a doctor. So I have run multiple ventures, started different companies in the past. But she mentioned this like we were talking about a point in time where I was going to launch a company and she said, I know starting a company. It's a team effort and you need people in and all of that.
But do not go into launching a venture depending on others helping you out. You have to fully feel complete in yourself for you to do what you want to do. That's the place I am in with regard to Metamorphix. I need a lot of help. Like, it's not about solving a problem like this. Need so many stakeholders coming together and benefactors and whatever coming together to do it. But as the sponsor of the venture, I needed to feel complete. That some things might or might not work. Some may work, some may not go the way I plan. It may not happen at the pace in which I originally planned. I may not get all the resources when I need to get the resources, so be it. Still, I feel complete enough to put this forward and launch right? So I have evolved. You call it personal development or you call it spirituality. You know, you call advancement or whatever. But now's the time where I feel where I need to be to do what I'm doing.
Andrew Cohn: And when I hear you say complete what I'm hearing below, that is I can move ahead even without knowing for sure that ABCD will happen. I feel confident that I can manage through if those challenges happen. I feel competent as well to lead through these challenges as they might happen. I don't need to have everything completely lined up and see all of the stepping stones out onto the horizon.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Absolutely. And being there is not relying on it. It's not a you know, I beat myself up to be self-confident or it's not about me. In a way, I will say I've kind of surrendered this. I've surrendered to existence, and we call it God. We call it our guru, we call it our spiritual teacher. I've kind of laid it down. So I trust that enough about the existential reality that it will happen if it has to. Right. So I'm kind of an instrument in it to help advance it. And so that's again a dichotomy. Right. That's again a dichotomy is just I feel complete enough in me to place and surrender myself to the larger power to take it where it needs to go.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And so I hear first of all, I would certainly label that a spiritual perspective. I'd also just call out that surrender doesn't mean surrender means giving up in the sense of giving up. I don't know. Not laying down and being passive. So surrender doesn't mean out. Surrender. Surrender. It doesn't mean I surrender, it means I'm at an even higher level. But perhaps, and I don't want to oversimplify this, but just in terms of one's growth and evolution, perhaps it's just not quite as likely that we have the ability and awareness and maturity to surrender in that way at the beginning of our careers. And if you do, I want to work with that person. But that would be pretty unusual, right?
Naren Balasubramaniam: It has nothing to do with career. Career is kind of gives you the experiences in a much more structured manner where, you know, you put yourself out and whatever. So career is a part of. But the aspect of spirituality has existed before the industrial age, where, you know, nomads or peasants and agriculturists. They practice spirituality. They didn't mean a career either. Yes. To serve as a baseline, to see how you're advancing. Right? It's a construct of the lifetime that we are living.
Andrew Cohn: I had a feeling this conversation would wander into some interesting places. I appreciate your perspective. I love when you disagree with me and redirect in a beautiful way. It wasn't really a disagreement. It's more redirection and refinement, so I really appreciate that. How would I love to? And I don't know, at this point in time to read whether we'll have 200 listeners or 200,000 listeners, but how could people learn more about metamorphic and potentially you if they wanted to reach out to you?
Naren Balasubramaniam: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for asking that. We've put together a basic website, an external facing website. It's a Metamorphix app. It is not a.com. It is not a.org. It is a dot app. So that's the public domain website we have. And if you know, purposefully, you know I've left it to intrigue.
So the content is light but it allows people to engage, subscribe and participate in. Yeah. So that's a way to reach out. And I'm on LinkedIn. Of course, if people can type in the complex long last name, Balasubramaniam, they will certainly pick me up and I'll be happy to connect.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And I hope they do. And I hope we continue to connect. We'd love to continue this conversation and really to just put a pin in at this time and then see where Metamorphix is in six months, 12 months. And it's been a pleasure to be kind of riding with you as you've launched this and see how this goes. And I just appreciate and acknowledge and honor the work that you're doing to connect these different parts of your life in order to serve people. That's what I see. Yeah.
Naren Balasubramaniam: Well, thank you so much. Always a pleasure to talk to you. But this was special. I mean, this was pretty generative. You know, we just were in the moment, and we just played into the conversation.
No prepared note. So I appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this podcast.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you.
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