Lessons in Presence: What a Horse Can Teach Us About Being Human, with Warwick Schiller

Written By Andrew Cohn

In this episode of Spirituality in Leadership, Andrew Cohn sits down with world-renowned horseman Warwick Schiller for a deeply personal and profound conversation on transformation, emotional intelligence, and the unexpected teachers in life: horses. 

Warwick opens up about his journey from high-level competition and the pursuit of external validation to a more grounded, spiritually attuned approach to life and horsemanship. What started as trying to “fix” a talented but quirky horse became a mirror that revealed suppressed emotions, judgmental thinking, and the need for deeper connection with self and others. That turning point led him to therapy, self-inquiry, and eventually, the work of Brené Brown, whose insights on vulnerability and emotional suppression hit him like a lightning bolt.

Warwick shares how therapy, vulnerability, and learning to truly “see” rather than judge, whether a horse or a human reshaped not only how he trains, but how he lives. He explores how presence, empathy, and self-awareness create real leadership, both in and out of the arena. 

If you’ve ever felt that personal growth could come from the most unlikely of places, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways

  • Horses Mirror Our Inner State: Often, the behavior we’re trying to “fix” in others, horse or human, reflects unresolved energy within ourselves.

  • Presence Over Patience: True leadership comes from being deeply present, not just waiting for a desired outcome.

  • Judgment Undermines Connection: Becoming aware of judgmental thoughts, especially self-judgment, creates space for compassion, clarity, and healing.

  • You Can’t Lead What You Haven’t Met in Yourself: Personal growth and leadership are intimately tied; as we heal ourselves, we lead better.

  • Functional Doesn’t Mean Whole: Like people, some horses appear to perform well but are emotionally shut down. Healing begins with seeing.

  • The Universe Responds to Purity of Intention: True service, offered without expectation, opens unexpected doors.


In This Episode:

  • [00:00] Introduction and personal realization

  • [00:16] The transformative power of horses

  • [01:00] Introduction to Warwick Schiller

  • [02:38] Warwick Schiller's journey and insights

  • [04:49] The shift from competition to personal growth

  • [08:06] Therapy and emotional awareness

  • [10:15] Impact of therapy on horse training

  • [23:38] Judgmental thoughts and personal growth

  • [35:06] The magic of giving without expectation

  • [39:58] Exploring sensitivity: Horses vs. humans

  • [42:46] Understanding the root cause: The five whys

  • [45:07] Patience vs. presence: Lessons from horses

  • [51:37] Seeing without judgment: A new perspective

  • [01:00:52] The power of purpose: A personal journey

  • [01:10:50] Conclusion: Applying wisdom beyond horses

Resources and Links

Spirituality in Leadership Podcast

Warwick Schiller

Andrew Cohn

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Transcript

Warwick Schiller: I was competing because others might think more of me than they currently did if I could win things. And about this point in time I was starting to realize, no, I think I'm enough. And so I don't necessarily need all that external validation. So I kind of lost the desire to compete and haven't actually competed since. 

Andrew Cohn: So there was something about this horse that perhaps if I could use this language, wouldn't allow you to just keep going. I've heard you say before that most of the transformations in your life have been started by a horse. 

Warwick Schiller: The interesting thing about it, I think the universe works in very mysterious ways. But this horse, I didn't have to change because he was quite functional, very functional as he was. It wasn't like unless I fix this thing, he's going to kill me. And looking back, it was interesting. It was, it was so subtle. Like the invitation to pursue that way of looking at things was very subtle. It wasn't this big, dangerous, if you don't fix this, you're going to die kind of a problem.

Intro: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, hosted by Andrew Cohn. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops or team alignment, Please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.

Andrew Cohn:  Welcome back to the podcast. In this episode I'm so pleased to have had a wonderful conversation with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is an internationally renowned horse trainer with decades of experience training professional reigning horses. He has represented his native Australia in the World Equestrian Games on several occasions. He's a very successful producer of horse training videos and he runs clinics around the world to help people develop their horses and develop relationships with their horses.

What we talked more about was his personal journey around personal leadership, personal growth, personal awareness. He talked about the impact that horses have had in his own transformations in his life, about posture and energy as key for connection with and development of horses and also of ourselves. He shared a number of deeply personal stories. Very self-revelatory and open. He's a terrific teacher and guide and companion on this path to growth. I know you're going to enjoy this one as I did; enjoy the conversation with Warwick Schiller.

Andrew Cohn:  Welcome back to the podcast. Today I am so pleased to have with me Warwick Schiller. And Warwick, in terms of the guests on this podcast, is a bit of a horse of a different color, if I could say that, forgive me.

Warwick is widely known as a prominent horse trainer, which involves training horses and also training people, which he'll talk about and quickly by way of biography. Warwick grew up in rural Australia riding horses. Beginning at just seven years of age, he's got decades of experience training professional reining horses. He's earned titles as a National Reining Horse Association Reserve World Champion and represented Australia in the 2010 and 2018 World Equestrian Games, which is where we met. No, I'm just kidding. That's not at all true.

Today his work's different. He dedicates his time to helping riders across disciplines address behavioral challenges and develop the tools and mindsets needed to build deep trusting partnerships with their horses. And perhaps the more traditional horse world doesn't think in terms of trusting partnerships. We'll talk about that.

And Warwick's really well known for his training videos. He's now got over 30 million views on YouTube with a thriving online community. His online video library has over 900 real time training videos. And he also hosts the wonderful Journey On podcast which features a wide array of often equine expert-related people. But not entirely. Sometimes he's even had some people who are way out of the box on the podcast like me.

So I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you on your podcast, but welcome to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast, Warwick.

Warwick Schiller: Thank you for having me, Andrew.

Andrew Cohn:  It's a pleasure. I love that you come from this different background and one of my teachers once said we may start out wherever we start out, all across the world, but as things ascend, they converge. Yeah. So we can connect in this way. Even though our backgrounds may be different from a New York-born lawyer like I was in a previous life.

So that is a bit about your bio that I read. But as you've told me recently, that's not necessarily who you are anymore. Or at least your background isn't.

Warwick Schiller: No, not really, Andrew. I started out wanting to be a horse trainer and wanted to compete in things and did reasonably well at it. But I think as time goes on and you start to unravel the reasons, you start to understand the reasons you do things, sometimes those things will change. And that certainly was the case for me.

Andrew Cohn:  Is it fair to say then what drives you now is different than what drove you then?

Warwick Schiller: Most certainly. I grew up relatively, what would you call it? Unremarkable child. I was pretty good at school, that stuff but like as far as sporting ability, pretty unremarkable. I don't know if they did it in America, but in Australia, if you did some sort of sports thing, the teacher would pick two captains and then they pick a kid, another picks a kid. And I was always picked somewhere towards the end of that sort of thing.

And I think repeated things that get into your psyche a little bit, make you feel a little less than. But I always rode horses. You know, I grew up on a 1200-acre farm and Dad had horses and we rode horses and the horses was the one place where I wasn't an outsider or whatever. And so I think there was a bit of a love for horses there.

Warwick Schiller:  But I also think there was quite a bit of external validation in doing stuff with the horses. And I was, I wouldn't say I was great at it but it was one thing I didn’t suck at.

We showed horses as kids, or as a family, really. Dad competed, too. And one of the events we had quarter horses and we did all the what's known as western events but the one that seemed like it was the coolest was an event called Reining. And for people who aren't horse people, it's kind of like figure skating on horseback. It’s got that sort of speed, precision, that sort of thing.

And yeah, I was attracted to that because if you could do that, you'd be one of the cool kids, sort of thing. And eventually it led me to come to America and end up staying in America and making a career out of it.

Probably the last time I competed was 2018. You mentioned before the World Equestrian Games and during that year, it was a big year of growth for me. I'd started seeing a therapist and I also had a mental coach that helped me for the games. But when I competed there, sometime during that year, it dawned on me that the reason I was competing was for external validation.

I was competing because others might think more of me than they currently did if I could win things. And about this point in time I was starting to realize, No, I think I'm enough. And so I don't necessarily need all that external validation. So I kind of lost the desire to compete and haven’t actually competed since.

Andrew Cohn: And it sounds like you don't miss it.

Warwick Schiller: There’s quite a bit about it I miss. My wife and I had gone on these big road trips all over the country. We haven’t been on a road trip for a while because we used to compete from here sometimes all the way to the east coast.

So there was that and the camaraderie with the other trainers and all sorts of things. But I think as my perspective has changed, I probably don’t, I wouldn’t say I don’t want to hang out with those people anymore—just the conversations these days are different. And those conversations about trivial things aren’t... small talk doesn’t attract me anymore.

Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm glad. I think there's an element of maturity in that, at least in my value system. I would say that.

And just to take a step back, this podcast is about the intersection of things that might be called spiritual dimensions of ourselves, things that have deeper meaning, things that may be purpose-related, deeper universal human-most qualities and leadership in different settings.

One of the things that I'm so grateful for, for this conversation, is you're not a corporate guy, right? You're an outdoor guy. And I’m oversimplifying, and perhaps it sounds a little judgmental. I apologize.

But you're coming from a different place, and there is a key dimension of leadership in what you do both personal dimensions and supporting others to lead and leading other families, which includes their horses, as I would include that.

I love the scope that you're bringing to this conversation and this podcast. But I'd love to hear more about the change in thinking that you had and how that relates to these deeper dimensions of yourself. Because you're very outward I appreciate your just teeing up and saying, I began seeing a therapist, I began exploring some things and what has meaning to me.

So please say more about that journey and what shifted for you? Was it in 2018 or shortly thereafter?

Warwick Schiller: No, it's actually before that. My wife had been looking for a new reigning horse and with the budget that she had, because they can be very expensive, she had a limited sort of a budget. So you have to either have a horse with less talent or maybe one's got more talent, but that's a bit quirky. And she had a choice between two like that. And the one that she ended up buying was this horse who 's like a little Olympic gymnast. Like he can do all the hard stuff, he's just a little bit weird. And the trainer that had him had some basic problems with him not being able to do all the hard stuff. He might spook where the judge's chairs sit in the arena and things like that. And that's my bread and butter sort of thing. So I'm like, yeah, buy that horse I can fix that. And some of those things were easy to fix. But this horse, while very obedient and could do all the hard stuff, had this underlying level of tension that caused just some little issues.

But the thing is, I couldn't change him. I couldn't fix the problem through the knowledge that I had. And by this point in time, I gotta back up here a bit. By this point in time, I am doing clinics all around the world. My YouTube channel's probably got 20 low 20 million views. So I know what I'm doing. I believe in my own bullshit sort of thing. People bring horses to clinics and they come in with problems and they leave with less problems or no problems. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about. And this horse had me stumped and he really made me take a step back.

I was always very curious about learning more. I was always wanting to learn more. But what I was always learning more of was behavior modification, behavior shaping. And this horse had me stumped as to why I couldn't change these little things about. And he really made me step back and he started having me look at different ways of going about things. And he led me into what I used to, I no longer use this term anymore, but he led me into what I used to call crazy cat lady land. Like people who have relationships with their horses. And I started discovering a lot actually, but it really brought me to the point where this horse had a level of shutdown. He was very functional, but he was living in a level of shutdown. He was very obedient and stayed out of trouble or whatever, but he wasn't completely relaxed. But usually horses, if they're not relaxed, have outward signs of it, like outward anxiety, this was held inside while being very obedient. So to the casual observer, you would not think there was anything wrong with him. You think he's perfect. But long story short, in discovering that he was shut down, he actually led me to trying different things. And those different things opened things up for me.

And I was at a horse Expo in Madison, Wisconsin, 2017, I think. And most times at horse expos I'm working in an arena, like someone brings in a demo horse, horse has an issue. And in an hour I work with the horse and help the people with their horse's issues. But sometimes you get a lecture hall and you get to do a stand up talk. And a lot of times these horse expos, they want me to send in my titles for these things six months before or whatever. So for these stand up talks, I used to have this. Everything I Learned in life. I learned from horses. And then I would talk about life lessons I've learned from horses. And I could fill in the space, whether it was 45 minutes or an hour. And at this particular one, I'd been looking at things a bit differently.

Anyway, in front of a room of probably 200 strangers, I admitted something to them I probably never told anybody before in my entire life and quite possibly hadn't even admitted to myself. And I don't know why it came out, but when I got done there, I went back to my booth, and there was someone I know who I just met that day, actually. And she said to me, she said, how'd your talk go? And I said, oh, I'm exhausted. I feel like I've been run over by a truck. And she said, why is that? And I said, I think I just told a room full of perfect strangers some stuff I may have never even told myself before. And she said, Brené Brown says vulnerability is the ultimate badassery. And I said, who said, what? And she says, Brené Brown. You don't know who Brené Brown is? And I'm like, no. She goes, oh, you're going to look up Brené Brown!

So I got home from that horse expo and I looked up Brené Brown, and pretty soon I downloaded some Brené Brown books. And in one of these books, there was a short passage that really hit me when she said, you cannot selectively suppress emotions. When you suppress the lower emotions, you automatically suppress the higher emotions. And I was like, what are you talking about, Willis? Growing up a boy in rural Australia, boys aren't supposed to show fear. Boys aren't supposed to cry. In my family, you don't show grief. I remember when I was about 12, a friend of mine–they were rural people like us–and his dad was cutting down a tree, and the tree fell on him and killed him. And it was a few days later, I remember, I was about 12 years old, and I was sitting on the foot of mum and dad's bed, and his name was Ben, and something about Ben came up. Anyway, I started crying, and my mother looked at me and she said, well, there's no use crying about it. He's dead. And the lower emotions are suppressed. Put it that way.

And that's what this horse led me to realize, that my lower emotions were suppressed. But then when Brené Brown said, if you suppress the lower emotions, you automatically suppress the higher emotions, I thought, that's interesting. I wonder if I could experience more joy or more happiness or whatever. And that kind of led me to seeking out a therapist. And I spent probably the next year after that, 2018, going to both individual and group therapy, neither of which did anything for me because I chose the wrong type of therapy. Someone suggested I go to a type of therapy called–I can't think of the name of it right now–I've drawn a blank. But this type of therapy is for people with emotional regulation issues. Dialectical behavior therapy. There you go.

And I think it was originally started for people, highly suicidal adults is what it was titled for. But they figured out it works quite well for anybody with emotional regulation issues. It didn't do anything for me. It turns out in order for that type of therapy to work, you actually have to have some emotions to be irregular in order for it to work. Like, we would have group therapy, we would have homework each week. This week, you're going to work on this and make sure that you practice these things before you have a problem, before something comes up, you know, at that point in time, I was no longer training horses for the public. I was just doing my online video library and traveling for clinics. That's it. In 2018, the year we qualified for the world of Question Games, I took the year off from clinics to focus on qualifying for the world of Question Games. So I'm basically at home. So there's no. I don't have a boss, I'm not interacting with lots of people, whatever. And so they would say, did you do your homework this week? No. Why not? I didn't have any emotional regulation issues, did I? Yeah. So that therapy didn't. I learned a lot from it. It didn't help me at the time, but I learned a lot from it.

But, yes, that was the beginning of the whole thing with my horse training videos, both social media videos and the ones at my video library. I've always been very honest about how I go about things. And so when I started changing how I was going about things with the horses and it was more, you know, we're really into that because it's the same with humans. It was more relationship based. I grew up with the parenting style of stop crying and give you something to cry about. And I think you're. How you were raised. If you're a horse trainer, how you were raised, there's a lot of that in your process. And what I realized was that a lot of the issues we have with horses are because they don't feel safe and not safe, as in they're afraid we're going to hurt them, but not safe as they don't seem to. They don't feel seen and heard. But yet I couldn't do the homework because I wasn't having any emotional regulation issues.

Andrew Cohn: So I wonder if this pivot towards valuing or recognizing the need for the horse to feel safe is that as, as an outsider to this world, at least until recently for me, is this a radical notion? A horse doesn't need to feel safe, just tell it what to do and make it do it. Am I oversimplifying? Is that what you were running up against in terms of more traditional thinking? 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah. There's a common misconception or an old wives tale that's very commonly believed that horses have a hierarchy. There were 10 horses in the herd. There's a number one and everybody obeys the number one. And there's a number two and everybody obeys the number two except the number one. And there's A number three and so on and so forth, which is not exactly how it works. But. But because we come from a hierarchical type of society, we have popes, prime ministers and presidents and kings and queens and that sort of thing, our minds are just almost shaped to look at things that way. And it's not that way. It's actually, you know what's interesting is I've come to learn that I've been really interested in hunter gatherer societies for a while now. Who, who are we truly? Who did we evolve to be? We haven't evolved for the last 10,000 years. And how did we live then and how do we live now and how can we live differently so we are more in line with how we're supposed to live. And hunter gatherer societies didn't have a hierarchy. 

Everybody has a job and the best person for the job does a job, even children. And it's not a hierarchical society. And it turns out that horses are the same way. If there is a, say, a lead mare, she has a certain role to play, but she's not the boss. They do things for the good of all rather than for themselves, which is the way we are societally and culturally conditioned. That's an odd paradigm for us. That's how they work. So yeah, it really got me seeing the parallels between the way I was raised and the way I trained horses. And as I started to unravel some stuff about me, I always thought I had the perfect childhood. I lived five miles from town, would come home on the school bus every day, lived on 1200 acres, mum and dad were home every night. There was drinking. There were no drugs. There was no arguing. There was no violence. It was like I had the perfect childhood. But then, being in my 30s and 40s, I started to think, you know what? I feel like I'm as screwed up as people who had lots of bad stuff happen. And it was not perplexing because it wasn't like I was thinking about it all the time, but it was like, I feel like I'm as messed up as people who had bad things happen. 

Then I learned about little t trauma, and then certainly learned about the whole not being heard emotional thing. Not allowed to express emotion. Our household was pretty quiet. If someone slammed a door, banged a door, like, hey, stop that. There wasn't loud music and you made too much noise. You had to quiet it down. It was all very vanilla, you know, very tame. Yeah, Very, very tame. And, yeah, what I've come to realize is that. That this horse that my wife bought was me. And in order to start to unravel him, I had to start to unravel me and understand me a bit more. Wow. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah. That really lands when you put it that way. And I really appreciate it. I just feel like I just need to call out some appreciation for your willingness to see this and explore this and pursue this as opposed to. That's interesting. Now back to our regularly scheduled life, but the opportunity to unpack this. So there was something about this horse that wouldn't. Perhaps if I could use this language, I wouldn't allow you to just keep going. I've heard you say before, most of the transformation in your life has been started by a horse. Perhaps this is one or one of the significant ones. And I appreciate your readiness and your willingness to take a step back and say, whoa, what's going on here? It's an opportunity to do things differently. And sounds like at that point in your life, you were equipped to do that. And good for you for doing so. It's not an easy thing to do, especially for men, because, as you said, for most of us, we're not particularly encouraged to explore emotionally. Typically, obviously, there's exceptions, and there's a time for everything. So I'm grateful to that horse because that horse helped you, opened up, and therefore has helped you help so many other people. 

Warwick Schiller: You know, the interesting thing about it, I think the universe works in a very mysterious way. This horse, I didn't have to change. He was quite functional, very functional as he was. It wasn't like, unless I fix this thing, he's going to kill me. And looking back, it was interesting. It was so subtle. Like the invitation to pursue that way of looking at things was very subtle. It wasn't this big, dangerous, if you don't fix this, you're gonna die. It was subtle. It was the same thing with me. Like I was functioning perfectly what I thought was perfectly fine. Looking back now, I wasn't perfectly fine. But what was really interesting was as I started to do some therapy and read different books and all sorts of things, I started incorporating that into my teaching. 

So I was very upfront on YouTube about how I was looking at things differently now. After that year of therapy, my first clinic was at the end of that year. It was in New Zealand, not a clinic. It was a horse expo in New Zealand. And a lady brought this big horse into the arena. That was. She was leading it. She was on the ground with the horse, and the horse was spooking at things and running around and doing all sorts of things. And normally what I'll do is I'll let people lead their horse around while I explain to the crowd what I'm about to do when I take a hold of the horse. And I really want them to see that, that the horse actually does have a problem in this environment. So that when I take over, it's not just a random thing, but this particular horse, when she handed me, the horse just went. And I didn't have to do anything. 

Andrew Cohn: Just to translate, just relaxed.
Warwick Schiller: Well, just relaxed. All the anxiety went away. They can't stand still. Looking around. The lady handed me the lead rope and this was just relaxing. And I said to the crowd, and I had never had that happen before. Normally I would have to do something, but this is after a year of therapy, so I. My energy must have been completely different. And I said to the crowd, so I have no idea what happened right then, that's never happened before. But while we're standing here, let me see if I can talk about what may have happened. And I started telling them about, hey, I've been going to therapy this year, and these are things and the things I've learned. And one of the big things for me was one of our homeworks was this week you're going to count your judgmental thoughts. 

So what you're going to do is you get like a little clicker, like the bus conductor abductors have, or get some stones, put them in one pocket, whatever. And when you notice you have a judgmental thought, click your thing or take the stone from one pocket, put in the other, and I thought, well, I'm going to have about three judgmental thoughts all day. So I'll just get three rocks, put them in one pocket, and by the end of the day, I'll have three rocks in the other pocket. I had 21 before breakfast the first morning. And the thing about judgmental thought, like being aware of your judgmental thoughts, number one, you become aware of how much you have about everything. But number two, do, and I think this is the big one, if you start to become aware of how much you have about yourself. And this is when it tied into Brené Brown's. You know, Brené Brown's a shame researcher, and she says the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is a focus on behavior, whereas shame is a focus on self. 

Andrew Cohn: So if you did, guilt is about what I did, and shame is about who I am. 

Warwick Schiller: Yes. And most people, when they do something that you could term stupid, instead of saying, oh, I just did something stupid, they go, I am stupid. And that lives in your soul. And if you've spent your whole life saying those sorts of things to yourself, it's pretty deeply seated in there. And so what counting judgmental thoughts did for me allowed me to reframe when something like that came up. And instead of saying, oh, you're so stupid, that was stupid. If that behavior was stupid, that means I have the chance to do it differently next time. Whereas if I am stupid, I am stupid, or I am whatever the script you use right there. And, you know, I became aware of how many judgmental thoughts you have. So then when I was. I think it was when I was going to fly to New Zealand. So I haven't flown anywhere all year. I'm in the airport and I'm walking along, and I. People watch. I don't think a lot of people watch. I'm walking through the airport, and every person that walks past me going the other way, people watching them. But what I realized then, which I'd never realized before, was that, oh, I'm watching them, but I'm not looking for the best thing about them. I'm looking for the worst thing about them. You're wearing too many clothes. You're not wearing enough clothes. You need to step away from the hamburger. You need to get a haircut. Did you even look in the mirror this morning? And I'm walking through the airport, and I realized that that's been below my radar all this time. And I realized that I'm judging all these people. 

So then I flipped the switch and I walked along, and every person I looked at, I mentally thought to myself, may you be happy. And I looked him in the eye and I gave him a little eye smile and thought to myself, may he be happy now, some people don't even notice you look them in the eye. Some people look you in the eye as you look them in the eye and they look the other way. And some people, they look you in the eyes. You look them in the eye and you give them a little eye smile and they give you one back again. There's this little exchange of energy. So I'm walking through maybe a San Jose airport, maybe San Francisco can remember. And when I get to the gate and I sit down, I'm like, whoa, that's a different feeling. I have this light, warm, airy feeling about me, which is completely different from that dull, dark feeling I used to have that was so common I didn't even know it was there until this very moment right now. Like I feel different. And it wasn't till I felt different that I realized how I used to feel. 

Andrew Cohn: As a result. And all of this is a result of that behavioral pivot. You basically changed your flight plan, if you will, from the judgmental one to the however you might categorize that that you know, may you be happy. More of kindness or yes, like a. 

Warwick Schiller: Loving kindness meditation, you think. And in the world of the question game, something else happened there too, so I mentioned I had a mental coach the year leading up to the water question games. She's a friend of ours from New Zealand. And what she did with both my wife and I. Cause my wife was on the Australian running team too. Cause she's American but she has an Australian passport. We lived there for a while. Our friend Jane did a zoom call like this separately with each of us and asked us some questions which we answered. And then she made us an audio to listen to about half an hour long. And she said listen to this with stereo headphones as much as you can. So I just put it on, listened to it and it starts out and Jane is talking like positive affirmations in both ears. About 10 minutes in, one of the Janes keeps talking and the other one stops talking and a different one shows up. So you've got these two conversations going on in your head. And I thought it was a little weird. Sometimes you can listen to one, sometimes you listen to the other one. Sometimes you nod off, sometimes you're thinking about something else. Come to the world equestrian games. This is you're on the world stage. You are representing your country. And so your ass cheeks are supposed to be clamped pretty tight shut. I'd competed there, and the first time when I competed there, I'd never been that relaxed competing at any level. 

Andrew Cohn: And how did it feel to be that relaxed? I know that's an awkward question. Was it a positive feeling or was it worrisome because it was new or it was. 

Warwick Schiller: Like, what was that? I'd never been that present. It's like time slowed down. There was the audio thing leading up to it. But also Jane gave us similar breathing exercises. So if I got a bit, if I started to get a bit nervous, like butterflies, I would just do this alternate nostril breathing technique that she gave me and that would just go away. So at the World Equestrian Games, there's a teams competition and individual competition. So you're competing in the first round. You are competing for your country. So all your team members' scores get added up and that determines the gold, silver, and bronze. Then they have an individual final a couple of days later. And the top 15 from the first round go straight to the individual final and then 16 to 35. So the next 20 they go back in for a semi final and the top five of those go to the final. So there's 20 in the finals.

And now I've never really been a superstar or anything, so I'm really. I feel like I'm there making up numbers. So I had a personal best in the first round, made the semifinals, and beat that by three points in the semifinals. And once again, I came out of there. I'm like, that was surreal. I've never felt like that before. And then suddenly it dawned on me. One of the reasons it felt different is because something was missing that I didn't ever know was there. And I realized every time I've ever competed with a horse or whatever, you know what you can do. You're not trying to do more than you can do, but you're aware of what you can do. But what I didn't realize was there's been this voice the whole time that says, what do you think you're doing? Who do you think you are? You're not good enough to do this. And it flew below the radar. It was like subconsciously there. And I never knew it was there until it wasn't there.

And it's almost like the airport thing. Like, I just realized I've been judging all these people, people. In order for me to realize it had been there, it had to not be there for me to see the, feel the difference. And all this leads up to when I went to New Zealand at that horse expo. One of the things I think that helped that horse be completely different when she handed me the lead rope is I didn't have any judgments about it. There's a, it's a breed and it's acting like this and I would have these, I had no judgments about it, but it was insane. This horse just melted in my presence and, and like I said, I didn't do anything.

And I had to say to the crowd, I said, so I didn't do anything right then. It's not like I've got this magical thing that I'm going to put some sort of energy into, I'm going to summon up and project. I was the same person when she handed me the lead rope as I was before she handed me the lead wrap. It's not some mystical whatever I said. I actually don't know what happened, but let me tell you why I think I'm different. So I actually told this crowd of people I'd been going to therapy and talked about some of the things we learned in therapy and I talked about judgmental thoughts and I think it took, talked about the plane on the way and things like that. And we videoed that. We always video. And I made a YouTube clip about that called change yourself to change your horse.

So I have been, you know, probably since 2018, I have been sharing my, what you might call spiritual journey or journey of personal growth on social media with horse people. And a lot of people go, you're so brave sharing all that stuff. And I personally don't feel it's brave because I've always shared exactly what I do with the horse, horses and how I do things with the horses. I just realized now there's a different dimension to it and so I've got to share that bit too.

And what's really interesting is that the demographic for say a horse trainer or someone who travels around does clinics demographics. 95 women between the ages of 35 and 65, 5% men. The same demographic goes up in the middle at about 50 sorts of things. 45, 50. And so what I didn't do was go, you know what? Most of our clientele are middle-aged women and they're all looking for some spiritual growth. You know, the kids are out of the house and they're contemplating their belly button and oh, if I go down this path it'll really resonate. That was not even the slightest thing in my mind. I was just being who I was. Like this is how I view the world right now.

And I started sharing that it could have gone the other way. And people go, this guy's a crackpot. But it didn't. More people were interested in what I was now doing. It was like, like, they've always wanted this part, but no one's talking about it. And so it actually was financially very good, but it had no financial motives behind it. It was just being completely honest about what I was doing and how I viewed the world.

Andrew Cohn: And you're right. And your audience and your clients were ready for it in a particular way. Perhaps they didn't even know that. They were just like you didn't know that you were until you were. And then here you are presenting this to them with an incredible amount of vulnerability. But what I appreciate about how you would share, even like when that woman handed you the lead rope and this happens in New Zealand, and you're saying here, let me tell you, my journey with therapy is there's a practicality to the way you talk about this. It's like, I want to share this with you because I think it can help you because it's obviously changing some of the impact that we're having. So if you're a teacher trainer, you're sharing what has value in terms of teaching and training, and if it happens to be deeply vulnerable, then terrific. But it's not like you're looking. You're not like you're intentionally excavating. It's more about, I'm aware of what might be helpful in terms of having a benefit for the training and growth. That's my business, that's my focus. And so the vulnerability is just a natural part of that. And as you're saying, it meets the audience in a certain way, or perhaps they respond in a way that is surprising to you, at least at first, with the response that you received, did you expect to get, this guy's just a crackpot. 

Warwick Schiller: Honestly, Andrew, I didn't think one way or the other. 

Andrew Cohn: Okay, it's probably a good thing

Warwick Schiller: I haven't been diagnosed with ADHD, but I've had enough. And my wife and I have done some counseling and stuff, and I've had therapy and all sorts of things, and I've had a number of people, including a counselor in a session with my wife, go, have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD? I'm like, no, this. There's a lot of things that say that you might. But anyway, one of my ADHD things might be just blurting things out without giving any thought about where it's going to land. And I think this was just me blurting out what was going on. I didn't really give any thought to where it was going to land, but that I might tie this into something that I am. And it's not that I'm adamant about, like I don't scream it from the treetops, but if somebody asks, this is something I'm pretty convinced of. So I'm going to back up a little bit. Back in the end of 2006, my wife's son and I moved to Australia. So we took two horses, two dogs and a 40 foot container full of stuff. We were there for four years. We came back with two dogs and a 20 foot container full of stuff. I was still involved in the sport of reigning then and we got invited to be on the board of Reigning Australia when we moved back there because we knew quite a bit about the stuff and they wanted us to help them out. At one of our board meetings they said, hey, we have a letter here from Equitana. So Equitana is Australia's largest horse expo. It's huge and they want someone to go down there and do a bit of a demonstration and a bit of a reigning demonstration. And I said, yeah, I can do that. I lived probably eight hours from where Equitana was and some of the other board members lived like a 24 hour drive from there. 

So I said, yeah, I'll go down and help out. So I am going to do this thing to help out. There's no thought of getting anything back from it. I'm just going to help out. And he contacted me and asked me would I, because I was going down there, would I be the in arena, a commentator for something that was going on down there. I'm like, yeah, I can do that. I can help out. That thing, that particular thing is like one of the big draw cards there. And so that's. That stadium has probably 5,000 people in it every day for that particular thing. And I was in the arena. So after we come home from there, I have people call me up and go, hey, I love the way you explain things. Would you like to come and do a clinic for us? I'm like, well, I've never thought of doing clinics, but yeah, okay. 

So the clinics came about because I offered my time to help out somewhere with no thought of getting anything back from it. So then we moved back to America at the end of 2010 and sometime during 2011, now I'm starting my training business all over again. So I'm slowly building clientele back up. So I've got some time. But what I'd noticed helping people clinics is some people have misconceptions about horses and if they had a different perspective, they could probably get along with them a lot better. So I thought, oh, I've got some horses here I can use for demo horses. I started making these little videos, putting them on social media and YouTube to help people out. I'm not trying to do anything with this just to help people out. And people wanted longer videos. Can you show us the whole session? I don't know if it's the same now, but at the time YouTube would not let you put longer than a 10 minute video on unless you had a certain number of views on your YouTube channel. So I couldn't put longer videos in there. 

So I had to find a video hosting site and they wanted to charge me 300 bucks a month to host the videos. So I had to start charging people to watch the videos. Probably four years after that I quit training horses for the public because now I have these two income streams. One is the online video library and one is the doing clinics. And those clinics expanded from the YouTube videos and stuff. Those clinics expand into traveling around the world doing it. And both of those things, things came about because I offered to do something to help with no thought of getting anything back. And I really feel like there's a magic to that act, there's an energy to that act that can't be recreated. If you have any underlying motivations that I'm going to get something back from this, I don't– I think that act has to be pure because looking back in my life, all the amazing things that have happened have all happened from the pureness of giving with no thought of anything back. And the things that I've tried to make…never made money. The same thing with my pivot. In probably 2017, my pivot was, hey, this is how I'm viewing the world right now. And I shared it with people. Not thinking that it was going to be a money maker, not thinking that people, oh, oh, I'm a 45 year old woman and I want a bit of more spiritual enlightenment in my life. I want to have a better relationship with my whatever.

 There was no thought of that either. And looking back at those things, yeah, I just believe, I really believe there's a magic to giving with no thought of getting anything back. I remember listening to a podcast of Tony Robbins maybe five or six years ago now. It was part two of a podcast. I didn't hear the first podcast, but he was talking about seven things you have to do in life to live a full and complete life or whatever. And the first five are on the first podcast. The second podcast I listened to.

He goes, okay, now we get to number six. This one's hard. And he started talking about giving with no thought of getting anything back. And at the time, I'd been looking back at some of these things, but that kind of really cemented. Yes. All the amazing blessings I've got in my life have come from when there was no ulterior motive. It was altruistic. It was like, we're talking about hunter gatherers before or the way horses work. It was for the good of all, all, not for self. And I really believe there's, there's an absolute energetic magic to that you can't recreate if you have the slightest bit of, Yes, and I'm going to get something back from this. 

Andrew Cohn: I appreciate that there's such a deep universe of timeless principles you're talking about. I want to be careful not to gloss over it, but to sort, but to honor that. And what I wonder is that little bit. If there's a part of me that's wanting something back, I might almost call that a little bit of attachment or a little bit of a hook or a little bit of a condition or a little bit of a.. So that. 

Warwick Schiller: Yes, so that. 

Andrew Cohn: And what I wonder is, in your experience, who's more sensitive to that so that another person or a horse in terms of demanding something or asking something or giving something to a horse with an expectation? Because I know you've talked about this notion of what is the horse perceiving? Does the horse feel demanded? Does the horse field care for which we're going to get to. I imagine. But who's more sensitive to that attachment or a hook? The horse that you're speaking with or a person? 

Warwick Schiller: I would go outside those two options and go with the universe. I like it. The universe is so sensitive to that. But out of people and horses, I would say horses. Yeah, I would say horses only because of societal and cultural conditioning. If I was hanging out with a hunter gatherer or something or other, it would probably be the same. But yeah, I think they're really sensitive to that. A lot of, say, child-rearing stuff or human interaction stuff or human relationship stuff is exactly the same with horses. And there's a child. It's child rearing. Saying that, behind every undesirable behavior is an unmet need. And if you can meet that need, the behavior goes away. That's horses. You know what I mean? And most people are trying to fix the problem instead of trying to understand what needs not be met. 

Andrew Cohn: When you say most people are trying to fix the problem, what occurs to me is we look for problems, right? We're trained to spot problems. And I imagine it's a little bit like that in the clinics that you would do over the years. It's like you see a horse coming, what do you know? You notice something about its gait. You notice something about what it's doing with its eyes, its energy. You notice what's wrong, what's off, what's out of balance. And you can't help but do that. You're trained to do that. We're trained to look for problems. I grew up in the law. It's like you look for problems, you look for potential liabilities. That's what you do. And I think it's difficult, difficult for many of us in this. I don't want to overgeneralize this culture, quote, unquote, but to look for the opportunities, to look for the blessings, to look for the good things, to feed the good wolf, if you will, in that parable, as opposed to looking for the negative. And I think that's something that many of us are needing to grow out of just because in the world that we live in, we look for problems. You might argue in terms of brain research, that we are wired to have a negativity bias. And that makes sense and ends. We're not beholden to it. We don't need to spend the rest of our lives that way. 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah. And the thing with the horses, I'm always looking for problems. So it's not looking for problems. That's the problem. Albert Einstein said, trying to solve a problem at the level of a problem is the problem. And when someone's having an issue with their horse, the issue is never the issue. So I am definitely looking at the problem so that I can backtrack and figure out where it's coming from. A lot of times I'm looking at the posture of the human because horses are very, you know, their main method of communication with each other is posture and energy. And a lot of times the human's posture and their energies are what's actually creating the problem. But the other thing is, I said all this stuff ties in together what you do with the horses. Child-rearing stuff, relationship stuff. But there's also business stuff, too. Have you ever heard of the five? 

Andrew Cohn: Why yes, but please explain. 

Warwick Schiller: I don't know that much about it. I think it was Mr. Toyota, Toyota, Toyota. Before they made cars, after the Second World War, they made sewing machines. And if they had a problem, Mr. Toyota said, okay, you've got to ask five whys. So there's a problem. We had a lot of complaints about units that were shipped out last month failing. Why? Well, we shipped them out a bit early and we skipped the final inspection process. Why? Oh, because our managers had made this decision and then we got late on why. And then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And why. And that fifth why. It's what caused the problem. So you're not worried about the units failing. You want to figure out why they failed. And I think a lot of times people with their horses are very focused on the problem without being able to unravel the problem. I have a Facebook group, and I used to be quite active answering things. I don't really answer that much there these days, but if I do and someone asks a question, I never reply with the answer. I always reply with a clarifying question. And they give me more information than a clarifying question because I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. Well, what's causing the problem? They know what the problem is. They want to fix the problem. You can't fix the problem. You fix out what's causing the problem. So it's a little bit like holistic health versus Big Pharma. Big Pharma wants to have you reliant on them to control the problem. 

Andrew Cohn: Or mask the symptoms. 

Warwick Schiller: Or mask the symptoms. They don't really want to fix anything. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah. So paying attention at a deeper level, having the patience, I'm hearing, too. Having the patience to not go in with pain medication, but having the patience to really get underneath that investment of time and energy is well worth it. Right. Because you're really getting underneath it. 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah. People. A lot of people have told me over the years, you're so patient with horses. Oh, my God, you're so patient. I don't feel like becoming a patient person. And recently I was listening to an audiobook by Rick Rubin, the music producer. You know who Rick Rubin is? 

Andrew Cohn: I've heard of him, yes. 

Warwick Schiller: Famous music producer. And in this book, it's called the Creative Act. And each chapter is a little part of the creative act. And one of the chapters is on patience. And in that chapter, Rick Rubin says a quote that I've been quoting every chance I get recently, which is impatience is merely denying reality. And people tell me, oh, you're so patient with that horse, or whatever. And I'm like, I don't feel like I'm patient, but the reason I appear to be patient, because I'm not impatient, because I don't deny reality. This is what's going on right now in this moment, in this environment, at this clinic, at this horse expert, whatever. That's what's going on. I don't have an expectation of it going a certain way. I'm just interacting with the horse where they are, acting right now, not what I wish they would be, that sort of thing. And so I just love that quote. Impatience is merely denying reality. 

Andrew Cohn: That's a beautiful quote. Impatience is merely denying reality. Rick Rubin, Is that his name? Yeah. And what I hear is that I hear that distinction between patience and presence, because patience suggests that you're waiting for something else to happen. And presence is. I'm just with whatever's happening. 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah. So I feel like I'm, I'm not impatient. I don't feel impatient. And the way you just described it, patient would be, I'm good at waiting for the outcome. I'm not waiting for the outcome. I'm just interacting with what's going on right in front of me. And that usually brings the outcome. I love to quote one of the most spiritual of the ancient Hindu practices, which is something called Karma Yoga. Karma yoga is focusing on a task with no thought as to the outcome of that task. Ask what they're about. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And I imagine, too, that people are not used to coming to horse clinics and getting an education in karma yoga. 

Warwick Schiller: I'm very lucky because I have a big social media presence and because since about late 2017, I have been very open on social media. The way I view the world and the way I do things, no one shows up at my clinics expecting anybody other than me. Me. Yeah. You know what I mean? If they want to be offended by the way I look at the world, they just don't show up. Because, you know, I think that's one of the blessings of having a big social media following, if you don't have to deal with the naysayers. You may be on social media, but don't really have face to face because they just don't show up. So I. Have you mentioned before, I have a podcast, and initially, quite a few of the people on the podcast were horsey people. Not that we ever talked about horses, because horses just teach you so much about life. It could be. Do you have two black belts in Aikido? Is that what you said? 

Andrew Cohn: Yes. 

Warwick Schiller: I mean, it's just a discipline that teaches you things. And so if we've talked about horsey stuff on the podcast, it's just in relation to the things that's taught. It's not, it's not horse-specific, but there was one lady on there and she is amazing with horses. She almost gets to the point where she can do mental telepathy with them. But I'd never seen a work with a horse. And then I got to see her. It was a demonstration one day and she came to my house that day. That was the first time I met her face to face. She was lovely. We had a great chat. She's lovely. And she goes to do this demo. She's in the arena and she's talking to the crowd and she's lovely. And then someone walks in the arena with a horse and she turns into the Wicked Witch of the west, like snappy and judgmental and you people. And all of a sudden it dawned on me, oh, she is so far advanced against the way she interacts with horses. And she has spent a lifetime interacting trying to help people who are not ready to hear what she's saying. And all that it's been is just this energy that's been bumping up against her the whole time. And it's got now to where she's just really defensive about stuff. Whereas like I said, I'm lucky that people don't show up to hear something different than what I want to say. Usually they want to hear more of the stuff they've already heard. I'm lucky that way because of that. That's soul-sucking. Trying to state your case to people who don't want to hear it. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah, no. Beautiful. And in the work that I do, I try to attract the right type of clients. Similarly, whether it's coaching work or working with teams and aligning teams, et cetera, in different ways, the hope is that it'll be self selecting that way. But I want to circle back to this point because I think it's such a critical point, this notion of patience versus presence. And in a way I hear it and I'm curious to know your thoughts and feelings about this and experience with this is that patience is conditioned presence. It's conditioned on a certain outcome or that it's a little bit like that attachment, that hook that we were talking about earlier, which is now present with the genuine. Just putting it out as an offering. And I suspect that as you said horses can tell if you're really demanding something from them or and being impatient or so I'll be patient with you until you do what I want you to do and people similarly. But in my four years of being around horses more intensively and I'm just showing up as a  total novice here, especially in speaking with you. Horses are present, they are unconditionally present. The horse isn't being patient with me. Would you agree with that? This is an observation as a newbie in this place, but one of the things I have experienced with our horses over and over again is that they're just present. They've got as much time as it takes. They're in kairos time and they're not patient, impatient, they're just present. 

Warwick Schiller: You said you've only been around horses for four years. But the good thing is you don't have 30 years experience. You don't have a 30 year-old wives tale to undo. Most very experienced horse people have a story attached to what horses do and whatever you, you've hit the nail on the head. They are just, they're always present even when they appear to not. They notice everything you do. Even if they appear to not be noticing what you're doing even if they're distracted, they're aware. Aware of your energy and your posture. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, all the time. But the thing with that, you're talking about patience and presence. There's a saying in the horse world, if you take the time, it takes less time. And there's also a saying, I run into people who are prepared to take the time it takes. Just as long as it doesn't take too long. 

Andrew Cohn: That's right. That's the conditional piece again. Exactly. It's a little bit like what you resist, persists. And once, and I've had this happen to me countless times and it's beautifully miraculous every time I become aware that oh, I finally surrendered to and to accept, okay, this is what it's going to be. It's a little bit like, okay, I find out that I'm going to deal with this doctor bill or more recently a dental thing, okay, once I've made peace with it, I don't have to pay it. Something happens once I'm willing to accept what it is, it doesn't become some negative thing that I have to endure. But it does not happen before that full place of acceptance. If I'm still not, I can accept it. And I'm wondering if it is going to go away. No, it doesn't work that way. Because the universe doesn't suffer fools. 

Warwick Schiller: Exactly. Like I said, people will say, yeah, I'm prepared to take the time it takes. But you can tell as long as it doesn't take too long. And it's really interesting. People tend to use the things never and always with their horses, even though neither of those are true. But when you do that, it gives you the, that my horse never–whatever people are looking for the negatives and not being present and noticing the positive sort of thing. That does affect your energy around horses, and it affects horses. 

Andrew Cohn: And what I hear in what you're saying there. Work is really. There's a big element to personal responsibility here. Got to take responsibility for how I'm seeing things. And how is that working? What results am I getting from it? Even, for example, this notion of recognizing how much judgment I'm putting out or even taking on to myself or keeping to myself or putting out to others, I've got to take responsibility for that and see that if I'm willing to do something different, really do something different and shift my thinking and behavior, I could get a different result, which is such a critical leadership principle in my experience, in 25, almost 30 years in the leadership development space. And people aren't willing to look at that because they've got a winning formula where they do things a certain way that gets them what they get. But you have to be vulnerable enough and willing as you're demonstrating in your story. Wait a minute. This hasn't been working for me as well as it can. 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah, and that judgmenty stuff. I was reading a book here a while ago by a guy named Charles Foster, and it's called Being a Human: Adventures in 100,000 years of Consciousness. And this guy, he's a British, like, naturalist or something or other, let him and his son go into the woods in the north of England and live like hunter gatherers for three months or something. At one point in time, he said he didn't eat for nine days. And when he did, he ate a hedgehog or something like that. And what was interesting is when he didn't eat for nine days, he had all these visions, like downloads of deep wisdom. Anyway, he was talking about the trees, and he said, you know what? I've never really seen a tree. As a matter of fact, it's been a long time since I've actually seen anything because I'm a naturalist. So when I look at a tree, I don't see the tree. I see the type of tree, I decide whether it's deciduous or not. I know what birds live in it, I know what bugs live in it, I know how it communicates to the mycelium and the ground, but I don't really see the tree. He said, one time I met a man who could see a tree and he scared me so much I ran out of that temple, hitchhiked back to Kathmandu, and took the first plane back to London. So obviously he's in a temple in the Himalayas. But I met a man who could see a tree and it scared me. That's it right there. Like, I think what happened at that horse expo in New Zealand, I've gotten better at it. But I saw the horse. Horse. The energy I had. I saw the horse. I didn't see the behaviors. I didn't judge the behaviors poorly, actually. I saw the anxiety behind it and I had empathy for that horse. Feeling that way rather than looking at a series of behaviors I needed to correct. And I saw the whole horse, but I saw the horse more than I had done in the past. And I didn't have to. I did very little on that horse. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah, that's interesting. So the seeing, the different way of seeing itself, it's a little bit like that beautiful adage that you. When we change the way we see things, the things we see change. 

Warwick Schiller: When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Yeah. Wayne Dyer. That quote’s on my website, that's probably the one quote I use the most. 

Andrew Cohn: And what I heard you just say was and when that can happen. If and when I'm able to do that, it's quite aspirational. But if and when I'm able to do that, the impact is huge. So not just if I make this change in the way I see things, oh, something will be different, but it can be very different. It can be very impactful. So the experience you had with that horse in New Zealand, I could see the horse differently. I could see the tree perhaps. And the difference is vast. 

Warwick Schiller: Yeah. There's just a different energy when you can see without judgment. And the things I could see were worry and anxiety and a feeling of being unsafe. And I feel like because I could see that I was immediate, emitting an empathetic energy rather than a judgmental energy. And for a sentient being whose senses operate as well as a horse's, that energy is a great deal. 

Andrew Cohn: I believe when you talk about senses operate as well as a horse's. Do you think that typically horse senses work better than people's senses? 

Warwick Schiller: Oh, yeah. People that have been culturally conditioned. Like us. Yes. Hunting gatherers. No. People who live in connection with nature. I have a, I read a book called…It's right here. What's it called? It's… 

Andrew Cohn: I love how you do this work. It's like you draw upon this. I read a book. I read a book. And you can just call it forward. So please keep sharing.

Warwick Schiller:  It is a guy called Phillip Shepherd, because I had him on the podcast, and it's called. I forget what it's called. It came to me in a minute. But in there, it's about being in your own body. And in there, he talks about a tribe in East Africa called the Anglo Ev tribe, and they think we have, in not five senses. I think we have 12 senses. But one of those senses is something they call seselame, which translates literally into English as feel. Feel with the flesh from the inside out. So it's like your whole body is like a tuning fork, and you're buzzing with energy. If you. If you've ever done a really trippy meditation or done holotropic breath or whatever, where you feel like you're,you can feel the energy of the universe sort of thing, that is a normal sense for those people. And I feel that's what horses feel. You know what I mean? 

Andrew Cohn: So I feel the need to ask you, especially given most of what these podcast conversations are about and about leadership and about growing as people. So with the awareness that you've had through the course of these transformations, awakenings, learnings, however we might categorize them. So how do you best support people to use these lessons to be both better horse people, but also better humans? Obviously, you don't make anybody do anything. The invitation is present. But what are some of the principles of teaching that you bring forward to support people in this type of growth?

Warwick Schiller: To me, me, there's a thing called equine-assisted therapy. And those people sign up for therapy, and then the therapist says, yes, we're going to do it with horses. Whereas I come out from the back end, people want help with their horses. And when I help them with their horses and help them look at the horses from a completely different perspective and interact with the horses from that perspective, then their perspective on the horses, really, they see a huge change in the horse, and it's not the perspective they had before. And they realize now that most of the problems I've been having are because of my interpretations of what the horse is doing. What I really love to do these days, Andrew, with everything I do, whether it's doing a demo at a horse expo or doing a clinic or having a guest on the podcast, I really like to try to bust someone's long held truth about something. And usually with the horse clinics it's about their truth about this is my horse is and when you can bust that truth to where they go, oh my God, it was only that way because I was looking at that way. Then you leave them open to go, what else in my life is only that way because I'm looking at it that way. And what other long held truths do I could I ponder at and prize apart, tease apart, have a good look at? So that's really it. That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing these days because I feel like that is in alignment with my purpose. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And what I hear is why do you want to bother with something less than that? Because of the level of impact I can have on someone's life, not to mention their relationship with their horse, but the impact that has. So when you talk about alignment with your personality purpose, I realize I'm putting you on the spot a little bit. What is your purpose? 

Warwick Schiller: A number of years ago, my wife went to an astrologer. And at the time we weren't astrologers, but someone suggested my wife go see this astrology. So Robyn goes and sees her and the lady records the whole conversation. I think I was away in Australia at the time and I got back from Australia and Robin says, hey, I went and saw an astrologer. And I'm like, really? And she said, yeah, listen to this audio profile. What she knew about me was amazing. So I listened to it, like, wow, I want to go see her. So I contacted the lady, call her. She wants my place of birth, date of birth, time of birth.

So I had to ring Mum in Australia to find out what time I was born. And at this point in time, this is probably 2019. Maybe at this point in time I have gone down the rabbit hole publicly. My YouTube videos had talking about all sorts of stuff, stuff about personal growth, spirituality, blah, blah, all this stuff. And it seems like the way it's worked out is that I spent quite a few years being this mainstream horse guy that people go, yeah, he's solid, he's not a fringe dweller–whatever he says, what he says makes sense. And then as I started to go down these rabbit holes, people like, he thinks it's worth looking at, let's have a look at it. That's how it was going. And so I go, this astrologer. And she, we're sitting there in her living room or her kitchen table, sorry. And she's reading the chat, she goes, oh, whoa, this is interesting. Whoa, this is. Oh, you don't see this very often. I'm like, what? What? And she gets really serious and she looks at me across the table and she says, your charts are telling me–and by this point in time, like I said, I've got 23 or 4 million views on my YouTube channel. Sorry, you got to put that in there before I tell you the rest of it–she said, your charts tell me that from the moment of your birth, your whole purpose on this planet has been to gather hundreds of thousands of people and lead them towards consciousness. And I'm like, oh, that's pretty heavy, I'm just a horse trainer. But then I started thinking about him, like, that's what I'm doing. No, can't be. Anyway, by the time I left there, she had me convinced that was my purpose. But then the voice starts, doesn't it? Like, that's too big. That can't be you. She googled you. If you put my first name and last name into Google, you get 37 pages of me. There is no, there's not a baseball player who played for the Mets in 1967 who's Warwick Schiller, okay? My first and last name together is an anomaly. There is no other one on the planet. So I convinced myself that wasn't the case. You're just getting too high on yourself right there. Who do you think you are? Shut up. The universe, if it sends you a message and you don't listen to that message because it was maybe a bit ambiguous or whatever, the universe will send you a message you will listen to. And so probably three months after that I was doing some clinics in Michigan and I'm not much of an urban dweller, so urban environments basically scare the crap out of me. I have a lot of horse sense. I don't have much of an urban environment sense.

So I would be on edge in the urban environments. And I know that the two most dangerous cities in America are Flint, Michigan and Detroit, Michigan. I'm not in either of those, but I think I fly into Kalamazoo, but still Michigan. Anyway, I do two, two-day clinics and on Sunday night I get done with the clinic and I go to dinner with the clinic organizers and we talk about all sorts of deep and meaningful things till about 11 o' clock at night. Then I've got a 45 minute drive back to the hotel. I've got a 7 o' clock flight, so I've got to be at the airport at 6. Oh, hang on. Now I've got to drop the rental car off and it's off site. So I got to be at the airport at 5:30. So it's an hour's drive from the hotel to the thing. So I got to get up at 4. Hang on. I got to put gas in the car. I should fill it up tonight. So I'm going to look. I'm driving around where my hotel was, kind of in this industrial area, looking for a gas station. About 11:30 at night, and I pull into this gas station and they're loitering around. This gas station in this rundown industrial area late at night is probably, I don't know, 10 or 12, let's say military aged, African American youth. Youth with some saggy pants. 

Andrew Cohn: Military age, yeah. 

Warwick Schiller: Like early 20s. African American, like late teens. So I pull in there and so I don't want to be here. I get out, I swipe the card and I grab the pump, the handle of the pump, and I go to open the gas cap on the car and it won't open. Like how do I open the keys? The keys. Get the keys out, unlock the doors. That's what does it, that one. Hang on. So I'm in the, under the steering wheel trying to find the little leave it pool to pop. And I'm like, forget this, I'm out of here. I don't care if they charge me $10 a gallon to refill this thing at the airport, I'm out of here. So I hang it up and I press cancel. I jump in the car and by the way, I'm. I'm wearing a T-shirt, a ball cap. I'm driving a compact rental car that's white. So there's nothing about me you can say anything about. I jump in the car, I start it, and as I go to pull forward, there's a, on the driver's side window. And I turn and there's this African American dude there. He's got his face up against the window and he's got this huge big neck tattoo, two bits of skin off one cheek sort of thing. And I look at him and I'm thinking he's probably got a gun. But I look at him and he steps back and puts his hands up in a submissive sort of gesture. He steps back and he says something like, sorry, I didn't mean to scare you, Mr., And something doesn't line up because he looks ghetto, but he sounds southern and educated. And we're in Michigan, and I'm like, something's not quite right.

So I rolled the window down like an inch, and I went, can I help you? And he says, I'm sorry, sir. I hope I didn't scare you. He said, can I just tell you my story? I'm a gospel singer from Alabama. I have a degree in religious studies from such and such university. And I've come up here. I do a lot of volunteer work, and I've come up here to help build a church. But there was some complete miscommunication. There's no church being built. And I've been sleeping rough for a couple of nights. And he says, I just need– I've got some money. I just need 19 more dollars to get a room. I've been sleeping, and the guy looks hanged. I just need 19 more dollars to get a room, and I just want to get some sleep. And by this point in time, it all rings true. Sounds southern and educated. And so I roll the window down. I'm going to give the dude some muff. So I reach to the window and I introduce myself and say, hey, I'm Warwick. And he tells me his name, and I can't remember what his name was. So as we start to shake hands, he starts to sing a gospel song. And so we're now looking each other in the eye, and we're not shaking hands anymore. We're holding hands through the window. I'm looking at him and the eye. He's looking me in the eye. We're holding hands, and he sings this gospel song. He takes his sweet time, and he can sing like, I feel like I'm auditioning for American Idol this–I'm getting a private concert. And his voice fills up the whole space of this deserted gas station. And he sings this song. And then he draws a big, deep breath in.

We're still holding hands, looking each other in the eye. And then he starts to pray. And he prays and he prays. And I think that singing in the prayer was five to seven minutes long I’m guessing. We hold hands the whole time through the window. We look each other in the eye. Through the window. No one looks away. It doesn't feel weird or whatever. And then he stops praying. And it's almost like he gets this realization of something. And he leans forward and he looks. He leans forward, his head really close to the frame of the window. And he says to me, I don't know what you do for a living man, mister, but your whole purpose here on this planet is to gather millions of people and lead them towards God. And then he sticks his left finger in my face and he goes, but the only thing holding you back is your fear. And I'm like, he got me in one. So I ended up giving him a hundred bucks and wishing him well and said, get some sleep, get some food. Good luck on your journey. And I pulled out of there and I drove half a block down the road and I pulled there on the side of the road. I was just like, just, I don't think I was sobbing, but I was shaking all over. And I texted my son, then I drove to the hotel. So I get to the hotel about midnight, and I sit on the bed in the hotel and I call my son. He lived in Hawaii. I couldn't call my wife because she was at home.

She'd be in bed already because Hawaii is much earlier. I called my son and he answered the phone with, what's this gibberish you just texted me? So they didn't tell him the whole story? And he goes, oh, that's exactly what the text says. Anything that happens, you repeat it enough times that the story can change. We still have the text I sent two minutes after pulling out of that gas station. And that's exactly what happened. And looking back at how everything's worked out, okay, that's my mission. And it's not like I go around on a crusade. I just feel like that's the outcome of the work that I'm doing. And apparently there's a message that wants to come through me. It's not about me. I think I've been given a bit of a gift with horses and a gift of explaining things. Because something I've heard over and over and over over the years is people say, oh, you explain things. I've heard that explained many times before, but never understood it. But I understood it when you said it. That seems to be the purpose. So everything I do these days, that's somewhere in the back of my mind that the whole purpose of this particular endeavor I'm doing right now is to try to lead people towards a higher level of consciousness, try to have them think about things, things a bit differently. Plant that seed that might lead them towards something. So that's kind of why I said everything I do. I'm really trying to bust one of someone's long held truth. Because when you bust one, it leaves them open to do a bit of inquiry on their own and bust a few more of them. And I think when you can let go of some of those long held truths, then you become open to taking in things from a different perspective. Effective. Yeah. 

Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And here, as you say, busting. I'm hearing busting open. Yeah, beautiful. 

Andrew Cohn: I really appreciate your sharing that story and I don't know how many times you've shared it, but I appreciate your sharing it here and inviting me into that space on that journey with you and our listeners as well. 

Andrew Cohn: What is the best way for people to learn more about your work? I also feel as though it's interesting that, you know, maybe when we publish this episode we can even list some of the books that you've referenced as resources for people because I really think that's part of the curriculum that you're identifying here in a light touch way, if that might be okay with you. But people want to learn more. Where do they go? 

Warwick Schiller: Well, I have a website, warwickschiller.com I have a YouTube channel which is just Warwick Schiller if you want to go on there. I wouldn't start at the beginning and watch videos in this direction. I'd probably start here and go backwards. I have a Facebook fan page, Warwick Schiller Attuned Horsemanship. And I have a Facebook group, Warwick Schiller Attuned Horsemanship. And yeah, those are about the places people can find me. 

Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Thank you. And I really appreciate the application of this wisdom and these lessons to the non-horse world, which is mostly where I operate. But some of that's shifting as well. I appreciate your openness and your forthrightness and your sharing your experience in very practical, helpful, beneficial ways. I'm grateful to be on this journey with you in some small way. Anything else you'd want to share in this particular conversation? 

Warwick Schiller: Now, you did a great job of drawing out the points that I always want to hit on. 

Andrew Cohn: Yeah, it's really a pleasure and I'm so grateful for the opportunity. And also just the wonder of these horse creatures has a way of opening things up. And in my experience, just to share briefly, in my experience, sometimes the. When I work with corporate people around the horses, what I'll often, often hear is I haven't felt that peaceful. I can't remember the last time I felt that peaceful. And the presence that the horse can provide to us in my limited experience is a delightful experience of getting out of our heads. Because the horses aren't in their head. Their heads are appropriately placed, not worshiped like we worship our heads, our minds. And so there's an opportunity to just put that down and be present. And what can happen in terms of learning and in terms of depth and in terms of awareness can be so profound and so wonderful. And I appreciate the way you bring this out into the world. And there's nothing surreptitious, or if you'll forgive me if you use this term, there's nothing Trojan horse about what you're doing. It's all right there. And I appreciate that. 

Warwick Schiller: No worries. Thank you so much. 

Andrew Cohn: Lovely. Thank you so much  Warwick. 

Outro: Thank you for listening to Spirituality and Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, subscribe to the show. Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. Visit the site at spiritualityinleadership.com to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of yourself. 


Andrew Cohn
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Eldership in Action: Witnessing, Blessing, and Leading the Next Generation, Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks