Eldership in Action: Witnessing, Blessing, and Leading the Next Generation, Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks
In this powerful episode, host Andrew Cohn speaks with Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks, clinical psychologist, executive coach, and host of The Voice of Leadership podcast. With decades of experience, including as an Army psychologist and senior faculty at the Center for Creative Leadership, Dr. Karen shares how deep faith and a spirit of service have shaped her approach to leadership.
Karen opens up about her early struggles to integrate spirituality with psychology and how she became a pioneering voice encouraging others to bring their whole selves, including their spiritual dimension, into the workplace. She reflects on the meaning of eldership as witnessing and blessing, and how modeling peace and presence can be more powerful than words.
Together, Andrew and Karen explore how spiritual grounding, especially her Christian faith, can support leaders through uncertainty, foster inclusive workplaces, and serve as an anchor in turbulent times. Whether it’s leading through riots, coaching executives one-on-one, or mentoring the next generation, Karen’s presence and perspective offer wisdom for leaders of all kinds.
Key Takeaways
Leadership begins with self-leadership. As Karen says, “You are the instrument of your leadership” — and that instrument needs regular tuning.
Spirituality adds depth to leadership. Leaders of faith can draw from inner peace, presence, and purpose — even in secular settings.
Eldership means modeling, mentoring, and blessing. Being an elder is about showing what’s possible and supporting others on their path.
Peace is contagious. A grounded leader sets the emotional tone for an entire organization.
Respectful inclusion is essential. Faith-based leadership can be offered with openness and humility, never imposition.
We influence more than we know. Whether through family, clients, or peers, our presence creates ripples beyond our awareness.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Introduction to eldership and wisdom
[01:06] Welcome to the podcast
[01:41] Introducing Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks
[05:13] Dr. Karen's journey in psychology and spirituality
[06:14] Challenges in combining psychology and spirituality
[09:55] The role of elders in different cultures
[12:59] The importance of role models
[17:20] Spirituality in leadership
[18:34] Integrating faith in professional settings
[23:57] Leveraging faith to lead with peace
[25:44] The CEO's influence on organizational peace
[26:14] Finding personal peace in leadership
[27:13] Jesus as a model for peaceful leadership
[28:03] Modeling peace in the workplace
[29:26] The impact of faith on leadership
[33:08] Changes in workplace spirituality
[39:30] Balancing faith and inclusivity in leadership
[40:49] Practical examples of faith in leadership
[44:42] Conclusion and resources
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks
Podcast: The Voice of Leadership
Website: https://transleadership.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbX0XrG1TknGthurUMnFXdA
Email: drkaren@transleadership.com
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Kodiak: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4rURKtnJr3jeHvZ0IVRQCe
Watch our Podcast episode
Transcript
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Very early on when I would give presentations at the consulting Psychology conventions and so on, people would be amazed that I would be talking about the intersection between these two. So gave some tacit permission for others to move in that direction and to do the same. So as an elder of sorts in the field, I'm also known for that which has just helped others to give voice to it as well.
Andrew Cohn: What about that definition of eldership as witnessing and blessing?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: If you live long enough, you have life experience, you have wisdom, and you can build into the lives of others. And I like the word witnessing as you defined it because it means you're an observer there as well. You're listening, you're paying attention, and maybe you can ask some thoughtful questions about what you're hearing that helps that person to take their journey to the next level. And the blessing part is huge because part of the role of an elder is to transfer the blessing to the next generation.
Intro: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast hosted by Andrew Cohn. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, Please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast
Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast I speak with Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks and Dr. Karen's got a fascinating background as she was an active duty army psychologist with the US army working in and around the Walter Reed Army Medical center in Washington, D.C. Ph.D. Clinical psychologist and brings this background into the corporate world. She's worked for years for the Center for Creative Leadership based in Colorado Springs, Colorado and has her own coaching and leadership development practice for several decades. And Karen, Dr. Karen provides a wonderful example of and as we talk about this courageously and respectfully leading from a place of deep faith. Her deep Christian faith informs her work and her life and she talks about how she brings that forward into her work in an open and inclusive and respectful way. We talk about the energy and peace that a leader carries and models regardless of the source of that peace. And we talk a little bit about her book Lead Yourself First and the importance of growing and leading ourselves before really attempting to lead others. Very practical conversation, a lot of wisdom and hope you enjoy it.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast. I am so happy to have with me today my new friend who has been connected to me tangentially for many years, but a new friend to me, Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks of the Center for Creative Leadership and Trans Leadership, Inc. For the past, what, 30, 35 years or so? Trans Leadership and just by way of brief introduction, Karen is the host of the weekly podcast the Voice of Leadership. It had been twice weekly for some time, as I understand, and as I said, for about the last 30 years or so she's been leading her own company called TransLeadership Inc. And also senior faculty at the center for Creative Leadership in nearby beautiful Colorado Springs, Colorado. For the past 30 years or so, she's held career positions in the army as Army Psychologist at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C. 1st Infantry Division in Fort Riley, Kansas, the U.S. military Academy in West Point, as well as working in a very interesting sounding position as the Chief of Psychology Services for the Exceptional Family Member Program in Frankfurt. So fascinating. I'd love to hear about some of your different experiences, but let me finish the introduction, please. And then an on-call faculty member at CCL and the chief assessor and Senior Program Associate at CCL in Colorado Springs, senior. So clearly you bring a lot of experience with leadership. And you were trained as a clinical psychologist, completing a master's degree and PhD at the University of Connecticut in Storrs. So you have been around in Storrs, Connecticut, but it doesn't mean you're old. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us about leadership and about the intersection of spirituality and leadership. I feel as though you have been in this space for a long time. There's a part of me that would love to ask you a good question and you and get out of the way. So first of all, is there anything else from your background and experience that might be useful? Just in terms of framing, what's your experience as you talk about the intersection of spirituality and leadership?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: I would just maybe add one little piece. And let me just say this. Thank you first of all, Andrew, for having me on your show. I really appreciate being here with you and having the opportunity to share. And I am kind of an elder at this point, if you want to put it that way. And if I go all the way back to the seventh, when I was in graduate school, my vision was to combine psychology with spirituality. That's what I really wanted to do. And what I learned, because I did not know this, is that that was a difficult combination. My professors at the time, they just couldn't believe that I was going to somehow pollute psychology with Christianity in particular, and they did not see the connection. Now for my master's degree, I did do something in that realm was degree of religious involvement and its interpersonal consequences. And they kind of warned me and said, you know, we really don't want you studying this kind of a subject for your PhD, which I had already shifted to something else by that time. And what I would say is over all of those years, since the 70s, I have finally been able to come full circle and to combine the two the way I always wanted to and how I was prevented from doing it early on.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, wow, very interesting. And were you discouraged because religion was so anti academic and you were in an academic setting, or was it. It's religion, it's really out there, it's, it's not just non academic, it's problematic.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, I think for psychology in particular, it was problematic. What I didn't know is that many psychologists are actually atheists and agnostics, especially at that time. And it was not welcome to combine the two. They saw that as, you know, anathema. And in fact not a whole lot of journal articles were available in psychology publications that really dealt with spirituality and leadership and particularly not Christianity. And so I had to go to journals that they didn't like, like the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion and other places like that, to get.
Andrew Cohn: Information and thereby probably without intending to do so, or maybe with intending to do so, you expanding the definition of what is proper academic research. I'm sure that that's exactly what you did.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, you know, I think what I was really thinking about is that if you're going to study people and truly understand people, you also have to understand what is important to them. And many people, particularly in the United States are people at that time especially were of deeply held religious faith and belief. So how could we ignore a whole dimension of a person and call ourselves studying psychology? And from a Christian perspective, I always thought, well, psychology, of course that makes sense because again, the Bible is all about how people are put together, how we tick, how God created us. Clearly these two are good marriage. That's how I saw it anyway.
Andrew Cohn: And it's been, from what I understand, the foundation of your work for some time.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: It's definitely been a foundation of who I am and my life and then also my work. And increasingly more so with my work is their greater freedoms now than they were back in the 70s. So for example, even now I see young psychologists consulting psychologists who also will be working in the business arena like I am consulting with corporate executives. There are young ones coming up now who have a passion for bringing a spiritual lens to their work. And so I'm mentoring some people like that at this point because I think very early on when I would give presentations at the consulting psychology conventions and so on, people would be amazed that I would be talking about the intersection between these two. So gave some tacit permission for others to move in that direction and to do the same. So as an elder of sorts in the field, I'm also known for that, which has just helped others to give voice to it as well.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. You know, I have a question about eldership, if I may, because I'd love to get your thoughts on this. This is off to the extent that we have an agenda, this is not on it. But I think it would be very interesting to ask you this. In some men's group circles that I've been in, I'm at the age where a few years ago I was staffing a men's weekend, actually in Hawaii four years ago, and I was invited. They said, you know, you may want to consider taking an elder role in this particular retreat. And I said, tell me what that means to you. I had some sense. And they said, well, very simply, this is in a very secular setting, to be clear, but this is why I want to ask you your thoughts. They said, well, eldership is all about witnessing and blessing. And I said, I'm down for that. Count me in for that kind of a role. And I've been much more conscious of that type of role in different settings since that experience and that circle on the beat four years ago. But what about that definition of eldership as witnessing and blessing? What do you think?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Let me ask you a question first. When they said witnessing, what did they mean by that?
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. Great question. I believe what they were saying. So this was a weekend retreat for men as sort of personal leadership, personal mission. It's a men's growth weekend, if you will. And it's actually a global wonderful group called the Mankind Project, and they do these weekends and have since the mid-80s all around the world. I've been involved since about 1995. And in the context of that conversation, I believe what this gentleman, who by the way, was a Sikh doctor from Northern California who was in the circle, who was looking me deeply into my deep, into my soul and making his invitation to me. I remember his eyes, but he was meaning witnessing the work of the men who are coming to participate in this activity, witnessing their work and their growth.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: I love that. You know, here's what I When I think about elders, I think about it in an African sense, perhaps. I'm African American, and I'm also Native American, and the elders are very important in both traditions. And when you think about the elders, they are the keepers of the wisdom, of the stories of the people, and they are also there to develop the next generation. So elders are respected in that sense. And so if you live long enough, you have life experience, you have wisdom, and you can build into the lives of others. And I like the word witnessing as you defined it, because it means you're an observer there as well. You're listening, you're paying attention, and maybe you can ask some thoughtful questions about what you're hearing that helps that person to take their journey to the next level. And the blessing part is huge because part of the role of an elder is to transfer the blessing to the next generation. So when I mentioned to you these younger psychologists who are coming along and who also want to do spirituality and leadership, I see myself as helping them to navigate some of the roadblocks, some of the barriers. They have less than I had, but they're still there. And to bless them and to encourage them, to call out in them the gifts that God has given them for the chosen work that they really want to do. And it's kind of a confidence builder, and it lets them know I'm on the right track, I have something to offer to the world.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And I appreciate the deeper additional level that you're adding to the definition of elder, which is really passing on really specific wisdom. When I say specific, I mean it's associated perhaps with a religion, a group, a Pueblo here in New Mexico. One of. One of my friends and the ranch manager here that I work with just about every day, is a wisdom carrier for the Tesuke and Nambe Pueblos here in northern New Mexico. And I've seen him teach, and I've seen him, you know, do what he does, often teaching, sometimes teaching in a very specific–let me tell you about the way my people see this, and sometimes teaching just in the way he goes about doing what he does.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Absolutely. And I would share maybe another story or picture of what it's like, particularly as a person of color. As a person of color and being from the older generation, I've often been the first to do something many, many times. And I remember when I was graduating from the University of Connecticut with my doctorate degree, of the people who were present in person at the time, I was the only person who was of African American descent who was graduating with a PhD throughout the entire university who attended in person. Now, there may have been people who just chose not to come in person. So not only in psychology, but also in every other discipline who was represented there. That's a lot of people, because it's a very huge university. There were a number of African American people graduating with master's degrees. And when they saw me, they saw a vision of what was possible, and they became de facto members of my family. They and their relatives came over to congratulate me, and they were so happy and so thankful because, again, it's a picture of we can go there, too. And so there's a responsibility in communities of color to really represent what people can aspire to. And I've seen it over and over again.
Andrew Cohn: You know, we could steer this conversation in a slightly different direction about pioneering and what that means and what you've seen, or we could keep it where we thought we might, around the spiritual dimensions of people in leadership and how you have worked with people over the years in that space. I feel like I want to ask you, where would you like to go?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Let's do a little bit of both. Let me add another maybe parenthetical comment to the conversation thread we're in right now. And that is, you know, I remember I had some young cousins when I was graduating with my PhD and they were watching me, but I didn't really know that they were watching me. And my grandmother gave this graduation picnic or party for me, and they were in attendance at this graduation picnic and party. So they were saying, okay, here's a cousin of our first cousin who was in the army and pursued her education through a health profession scholarship, as it was called. In part, that wasn't the whole thing, but that was a part of it. And what I didn't know is that a couple of them sort of patterned their lives after that. And one person, she surpassed me and went through the Navy and did the whole health profession scholarship the whole year. She became a physician and so on and so forth. And what they said later was that it was watching me ahead of them that let them know they could do it because someone in their family had done it. And it's the importance of role models. So when I think about elders in the workplace, when I think about those of us who even carried the spiritual torch, we're showing what is possible.
Andrew Cohn: Well, right. Which is eldership and which is leadership in its own way to show what is possible. Because the thing I know. Chapter, it's either chapter one or chapter two in your book. It's. It's having that vision, right. It's embracing that vision. And the vision is what's possible.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Absolutely. And some people, they don't even if they don't see others, so to speak, who look like them, ahead of them, it's hard to imagine that it's possible or how could I get there? I've never seen anyone like me who is there. When you're leading in your own life, it's remembering. It's not just about you. It's about those who are watching you, those who come behind you, who are following you. And when you mess up, it has profound impact as well. And so I just say, just be aware you are carrying the torch for you and others.
Andrew Cohn: I just want to be sure I looked down for a moment when I referred to chapter one or chapter two of your book. And what I'm talking about is Plug for the book Lead Yourself First, the Senior Leader's guide to Engaging your People for Greater Performance and Impact, which is also a very personal book in addition to being informative. I love the chapter and key learning points and questions.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, thank you so much for referencing it.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you for that. So when we talked a few months ago about spirituality and leadership and the way that I've been approaching this as when I say spirituality and leadership, I mean the spiritual dimensions of us as people, regardless of how they may have been developed or nurtured, those dimensions are so needed in the workplace today. And the conversations, these conversations are about how can we bring these dimensions of ourselves into the workplace and how can we do it in a way that's inviting, inclusive, non alienating, or in any way keeping anybody out? Because their root spiritual dimensions and spiritual awareness may be very different than mine. So I'd love to hear you have worked in so many different settings. I mean, certainly in the military, in different locations. But ccl, I would imagine from my experience with the center for Creative Leadership is that the whole world comes to the center for Creative Leadership and still see leaders from all over the place and all different types of settings and sectors of the economy or not for profit and otherwise. Talk to me, please talk to us about the intersection of these spiritual dimensions and leadership and how you have encouraged leaders to embrace those and how you've seen them make that embracing that marriage work.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: And it varies from setting to setting. And I'll say this as a person from a Christian perspective, which is where I come from, and also a very strong biblical perspective as well. And many of the people that I work with do not necessarily have that as their spiritual foundation or background or they may not have any spiritual background or foundation at all. So it does not limit my ability to work with them. But here's what I will say. Those who already have some kind of a spiritual foundation that's biblically grounded, whether it's Christian and or Jewish, there will be a way that I can connect at a deeper level with those who have that in their purview. And they will get something just a little bit extra from me just because I'll be totally free to share those things with them. Those who come from a different faith tradition, or sometimes I'm in a setting where I'm more limited in what I can do and what I can share. What I find is that it's so helpful and useful to rely on what I would call the Holy Spirit to lead and guide about when I should offer an idea or thought to someone. And I'll ask permission. So I'll give an example. When I was working at the center for Creative Leadership, I was working one day with a woman who was of Native American heritage. So we had a lot in common that we could share there. And there was a point of commonality that we could build on. And as I was talking to her, there was a Bible verse that was just resonating in my mind with what she was talking about. And I knew that she did not come from a biblical perspective. And so, you know, the Holy Spirit's nudging me. This verse is really important for her. This verse is really important for her. So I finally stopped at a point, said, you know, so I'm really getting some input from God right now about a verse that I should share with you. It's a verse from the Bible, and I just want to have permission first to. To. To share that she gave permission. And so I had a Bible with me. I pulled them out, I read the verses that were in line with what she was talking about, and she said, oh, yes, that is so relevant. And she appreciated it, and it was something that she really could use on her journey. So I think we have to be brave, we have to be courageous, we have to be respectful. And it's always in the spirit of, how can I add value to the person who's sitting here in front of me and who's walking a particular journey? And this is a piece maybe they don't have to the puzzle. And that might be useful.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And I love it. And as you said, respectful. And I think it seems to me that asking her permission that way was a great sign of respect to say, I'm not going to tell you that you need to know this, because this is what I believe or something. But rather, may I share something with you that's coming forward for me?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Exactly. And I found that to be an extremely useful strategy, particularly when I'm in settings where I may be working with other institutions or other people besides just in my own company, trans leadership, where I have a lot more freedom.
Andrew Cohn: Right. So when they come to you in trans leadership, people know they have a sense of where you might go, even if they don't come from the same background or the same faith foundation or otherwise. I'd imagine you have people. I mean, your people know of you. They come from far and wide, and they may not come from the same faith base. Right?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Oh, that's completely true. In fact, I would say, historically, the majority of the clients that I've had over the years at trans leadership have not necessarily been people of faith. And. And sometimes it comes up and sometimes it doesn't. And what's a little bit different with trans leadership right now is that at the beginning of the pandemic, I made a decision and doubled down on the fact that we are creating specific services for those people who are of the Christian faith. And it doesn't mean that we won't still work with others. We will always work with all people who want to work with us. However, what it does mean is somebody could intentionally say, yes, I really want the spiritual service that you provide. And in that, it would not be unusual for me to mention Bible verses that are relevant to whatever we're talking about. It would not be unusual for me to stop and pray with the client right then and there at the moment, or to give them even some homework to do that also has a spiritual dimension and in addition to the leadership dimension of what the homework might be.
Andrew Cohn: Well, in addition, and I think it's part of the leadership dimension. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Oh, for sure. I mean, if you. If you really read the Bible in any great way, it's full of leadership examples, leadership experiences and stories. I call them master stories from which we all can learn.
Andrew Cohn: So when you think about or is, as I like to try to describe this, and hopefully it's fairly clear, this notion of these spiritual dimensions that we all carry as human beings and the need for these qualities in leadership settings, the need for acceptance and peace and loving and forgiveness and holding space, for example, I'd love to hear for you how you bring those two together, particularly from the toolkit that you bring, which is. I hate to think of it as a finite toolkit, maybe this expansive toolkit, but how do you bring those two together? And what lessons or stories. Might you share about how those two come together?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: A lot of times I'm working with clients who, they have certain abilities and certain giftings and certain positions in the organization. And because of the position that they have in an organization, they have a lot of influence. That person might be the CEO, that person might be an executive leader in some other capacity, and others are looking to them. And so as we talk about whatever the pain might be that people are experiencing or whatever's going on in the business, and when that person is a person of faith, we talk about how they can leverage that faith experience to really help to calm the people in the organization. So let me give you an example. Let's say that there are serious riots or something in a particular city where someone is. And people are very concerned in the corporation. And there's a lot of anxiety and angst. And my client is a Christian who knows and understands that what Jesus actually promises is that we will have peace that passes all understanding. And it's a peace that transcends the circumstances because it's an internal peace. It's not based on the circumstances. So things can be chaotic all around you, and yet you can walk in peace. So one of the things we might talk about is how that executive can exude peace as they are walking through the organization. What kinds of messages can they share that would encourage people in the company? And we know there's what I call a contagion effect from the CEO chair. If the CEO is flustered and freaked out and the world's coming to an end, people will feel that and they will operate on that energy. Yet if that person can walk in and model the peace, that also can transfer to the rest of the organization.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, the CEO is an anchor for peace.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Can be, yes. And the CEO has to understand that how they live their own life influences how they show up at work, which then influences other people's perceptions of what's possible in terms of how they live their daily life.
Andrew Cohn: One of my teachers used to love to ask this question, where do you go for peace? I think actually one of his books was called Where Do You Go for Peace? And I love this notion of the CEO, or any leader, any leader in any business, family, community. Where is it not important to walk from a place of peace? And this could be a very secular notion of peace, or it could be a much deeper spiritual or religious notion of peace. And my sense is that you can approach this from so many ways, depending upon whom you're relating to and what they might need or Appreciate or welcome or really just be capable of taking on.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's more than one way to share the concept of peace. And sometimes it's even talking to that person about where they are getting their peace from and sometimes encouraging them to spend more time in those places where they might get the infilling of more peace because of the chaos all around them. So you remember in Jesus life and he went to the mountains very frequently and he would spend time alone with the Father to get prepared for whatever he was going to have to deal with that day on his earthly walk. So that at times when everybody else was acting crazy around him, he just. He could somehow walk through the crowd and escape and not even be captured because he's walking in a higher and different level of peace. And similarly, when he was on the ship that was being tossed by the storms of the sea, he's over there asleep, and his disciples are saying, wait a minute, this ship is being tossed. And there you are asleep. How can you sleep? And all of this is going on. But he already knew God the Father had them and he was on the boat. He already had the power to handle whatever he just speak to the winds and the waves and they would obey. So when we think about our own lives as peoples, to recognize that same God is present in us, to calm the winds and the waves in our lives as well.
Andrew Cohn: And that that belief can be practically applied and used in everyday business settings, at least from my point of view. And it need not ever necessarily be shared in any type of a religious context. It's sort of with the leaders that I've worked with that really model this. It's more I'll have what she's having. Like, I would like to be walking through the way she's walking through and carrying the peace that she's walking. I don't know how she gets it. I'd love to ask her about it, necessarily, but she's not patronizing, she's not proselytizing, but she's modeling it.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, this is really such an important point because a lot of my clients who are in these executive roles, they're not in a position where they can truly proselytize both in the workplace. Yet how you live is a very huge message. People are watching that. And people will come and say, I've noticed that we had all this chaos last week at work. And you walk so calmly through that. How did you do that? It's an invitation very often to share more. And sometimes they never ask. And that's okay too. Either way, you're still modeling and you're still leading.
Andrew Cohn: And that energy, as you said, is still contagious.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Oh yes, it still is seeding the organization nevertheless. And I'll put it this way, if I think about many of the leaders that God had in the Bible who were in pagan or pagan countries, think about Joseph down in Egypt as an example. The whole realm of Egypt was blessed because Joseph was present. They didn't have to believe what Joseph was believing, but because Joseph had a relationship with God, the organization was blessed. And so very often there's that secondary kind of blessing that falls on the organization because of who the leader is.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and those are the leaders that we love to find support and just support any way we can. And that's why I love doing this work. But regardless of what the source of their peace might be, and some may be quite, quite religious and quite traditional in that sense, and some could be very progressive and some can have whatever it is, I don't, I talk to many leaders and they say, I just don't come from any tradition, but I know what I do to where to go to find peace. And I say, beautiful, bring it, we need it.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Exactly. I mean, the workplace is definitely in need of something beyond just the material world and to know God and to have a broader perspective of who God is in our world and part in creation and sustaining creation, it actually brings value that we, we don't always realize the profoundness of it yet. It is profound.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and it sounds a little bit like we don't realize that where the influence we're having on other people, even in the, you know, the PhD graduation, et cetera, we don't know necessarily the impact we're having on others.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: But oh yeah, you may not always find out. People may, I'll put it this way, if you're in any kind of leadership role, even if it's just in your family where people can see you and it's front and center, you are influencing someone, someone is watching you at all times.
Andrew Cohn: I certainly became aware that when my son was born. This is a different game. And, and that's one of the beauties of being a parent in my experience is it's so clear, it's, it's definitely not about me. Right. When we coach people and people making our career decisions and they talk about their kids, well, I don't know how old are my kids or what's happening in my kids lives that are impacted, that's that is impacting the decisions that I have before me, it's like it matters because my life is not just about me. And isn't that wonderful?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: It is. It really is. You know, it's funny, I was just. I had a conversation with my father last night, and my father and I are very, very close. And we had many, many years of just wonderful experiences together, including experiences that were just the two of us. And we were reminiscing about some of those. And I was just letting him know how he has built into my life over the years and left me with all of these wonderful memories which as long as I'm living, I'm not going to forget. I will remember them. It's a part of my journey. It's a part of who I am. As an elder, he deposited into me as well.
Andrew Cohn: And how beautiful that you take the time and the space to. To share this with him when he's alive and well and can hear it and receive it and to help whatever impact it may have had on him. But I could only imagine as a dad, how beautiful that is for him to hear. So lovely.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Right.
Andrew Cohn: Well, let me ask you a question. You used the word elder again and you talked about the workplace now, particularly now, and you are making a distinction about what's happening in the. In the workplace currently. So what have you seen over the years, over the years in terms of how the workplace has changed and the willingness or readiness of people in the workplace to talk about concepts that are spiritual, religious, however we may define that, what's changed? Because I'm curious to know how you've seen it evolve, really, but through the lens of. So that we can bring these positive experiences and positive energies and characteristics. How have you seen the willingness and openness change over the years?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: And just to be clear, I've been in the workplace for about 50 years, so that's a long time. And what I've seen over the time is that if I think of the military, I'll use it as one example. The military has always been a little more open to spiritual realities. And I think it's because it's a life and death profession. And when you go to war, people are dying and things are happening all around you. There are chaplains that are part of, you know, the military community and so on. So it's been easier, for example, in talking to any specific soldiers or whatever. If they have a faith tradition, they're willing to talk about that. So in the military, it's not been as challenging, at least not for me in corporate. It's Been interesting because Fadal, way, way back, let's say over 30 years ago, in a corporate context, this was a more taboo subject. A little bit farther back, more recently, people are willing to have a conversation about spirituality in general, although there's been increasing hostility in particular about Christianity. And I think it's because people have misconceptions about what true Christianity is about. And there are various brands out there that people become aware of, and they think this is the monolith of Christianity and. And they associate it with a lot of negativity, which isn't really the case when you really boil it down. Christianity is really about love. It's about God's grace and so much more. Yes, there's the. How would I say, you know, God has a plan and a purpose, and when we deviate from it, there are consequences. Yet it really is the foundation is love. And some people don't know that. They have lost touch with it. I think many, many years ago, more people had a Christian faith, so they understood this. I think in today's world, less people personally claim a Christian faith, so they don't really know personally. They only know what they hear, and it's not really what's real.
Andrew Cohn: Does that make it harder for you to bring in some of these ideas or concepts? I mean, maybe someone else would say, no, I wouldn't appreciate that Bible verse. Perhaps someone would answer the question that way. I doubt it, but it's their right. But does it make it harder for you to bring in some ideas or. Or experiences or wisdom, or would it be. No, it's not harder, but perhaps I can just flex a little bit. I'm curious to know what your experience, so that I don't need to use certain words. Where's that balance for you in terms of flexing while still honoring, of course, the reality of what you're bringing?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, I think that it presents different opportunities. So let me give you an example. I was once at a corporate clients event. I was doing a leadership program with them, and we were at an informal dinner. And at this dinner were some people who were of different sexual orientations. And they were making some statements about Christian people and how Christian people hated people who were lesbian or people who are homosexual, whatever. And they just had a lot of things to say. Now, I happened to be sitting at this table, and it was a mix table of various people. And so I said, well, you know, let me weigh in on that. I said, I'm a Christian person. And I said, and it's been my experience that if you really understand what Christianity is all about, you don't hate people who may come from a different direction or a different perspective. You love the people. And I talked a little bit more about that. They were shocked because they weren't expecting me to say anything like that, and they probably didn't know that there was a Christian person at the table. But yet I identified myself and just said, you know, it may appear that way. However, here's something else to consider. May not be that way.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful and lovely that you spoke up so you could correct a misconception and let them know there's another. There's other voices that need to be heard. Yeah, beautiful. What else do we need to talk about on this topic? Because you have so much to share, I feel. And you. And you lead so many podcast conversations, I feel like I want to ask you. What question should I ask?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, I don't know what questions you should ask. However, I'll say this. My book that you referenced earlier, Lead Yourself First, it's purposely named Lead Yourself First because it really does start with each of us. We really pour out of the reservoir of who we are as people, and we mine our own life experiences to be able to come alongside others who are going through similar life experiences or even different ones. However, we've learned things along the way, so it's important to stop every so often reflect on what we're learning. It's important to continue to grow ourselves and to lead ourselves first before we even think about leading anyone else. Because one of the I'll say principles in my book is this notion of you are the instrument of your leadership. And so if you think about that, there's a lot of ways to think about that. But one way to think about an instrument is like a piano. And so you got to tune yourself up every so often so that you can be ready to play the melodious music that God has sent you down here to play.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And we focus so much often on, you know, no, I'm sitting and playing the piano. It's like, no, well, you're playing yourself. You know, we're responsible for developing our own gifts. We're responsible for reflecting on the impact of what we're having. We're. Et cetera. So, yeah, absolutely. Wonderful little book. Another plug for the book, Lead Yourself First, the Senior Leaders guide to engaging your people for greater performance and impact. Beautiful. I am curious to know, particularly if you. You clearly come from a strong religious foundation, and I'm curious to know what you have done and how you have seen other leaders bring forward your wisdom and your, I'm gonna say your teachings. That's not really the right word, but your wisdom into settings that may not necessarily be particularly known for? Oh, we talk about religion all the time here. No, we don't. And I think it's something that's tougher and tougher to talk about in the contemporary workplace especially. Well, there's a very positive, important focus on inclusion and including all kinds of different voices in the workplace now I think more than ever. And one dimension of that is to include people from different faiths and also to respect people who do not come from specific faiths. But when you're driven by and awakened by principles of religion or spirituality more broadly, you want to bring it wherever you go. You will bring it wherever you go because it's part of you. So how can you as a leader or how have you seen other leaders work with their own faiths and bring in their own faiths in ways that keep the container open and inclusive to all? I'm wondering if you may have a story or two or a lesson or two to share about that.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Yeah, let me share two examples in a group context. I mostly work with people born one on one at this stage in my career. I'm mostly a trusted Advisor in a one on one setting with CEOs and other C suite sort of executives. However, I'm thinking of one case where I was working for a federal government client. Federal government context. It just so happened this was not done intentionally. There were three of us who were members of this leadership team that were leading this leadership effort and there was some tension that was going on in this workplace during that week. So I said, why don't we, since the three of us are Christian people from a Christian perspective, why don't we go early to the meeting room and let's meet and pray together over this class and what we're doing and what's happening here. You know, that God would write this ship, that this thing will be straightened out. So we did that. We prayed early in the morning before the class started and things straightened out and went smoothly for the rest of the week. That's an example of us behind the scenes, in a sense. But we all shared the same faith tradition and we had never done that before. However, we did it in that particular circumstance and situation. Another situation I would share at CCL center for Creative Leadership, they have a concept of a button. The button talks about the aspects of life that are most important. One of those buttonholes was known as spirituality, particularly years and years ago. And then it got redefined a little bit more as wholeness. And so whenever I was teaching that part of the button, I talked about in very broad terms and how it may mean different things to different people and gave examples of that. And my personal examples and stories came from my own life and my own faith tradition that I would share with them. So it was a both and. And it was an invitation for people to personalize it for themselves. And people did. People personalized it in ways that made sense for them. And the invitation was broad enough and open enough. And I gave them some generic examples and also some personal examples about how that might take place. So in group settings, those are a couple of examples of how that's manifested. No.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And I see that as another example of respect. It's like, try this on through your own lens, right through your own experience. The important thing is that you try it on.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, it's something to consider because truthfully, a lot of executives are running fast and furious and they have never considered the spiritual side of their lives. Sometimes it's the first time they're having that conversation or even thinking about it, or they may think it's totally irrelevant. And it's easy to see it that way when you have a lot of money and great health and all is going well. And even, I'd say, as the Bible says, when those other days come, what's the anchor for you at that point? What grounds you and what continues even beyond your physical ability? Because we continue to grow. We continue to mature spiritually even as our physical selves may be degrading in.
Andrew Cohn: Some ways, maybe even there's more availability for us to grow spiritually as other things begin to recede, perhaps.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Well, there's certainly that option if, you know it's an option, you know.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. I feel like we could pivot in a number of different directions here, but I love how you've teed up this conversation for me to think about this in different ways and hopefully for some of our listeners here as well, if someone wants to learn more, if someone loves what you're saying or even doesn't, and say, I would love to talk with you about this and learn more about where you're coming from. How can they reach you? What's the best way to continue a conversation with you?
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Thank you so much for that. And they can go to my website for one thing, www.transleadership.com. they can write to me at Dr_Karentransleadership.com and I would encourage them to also look for the podcast, the Voice of Leadership. The podcast can be found on most podcast channels. It's also on our website under Resources. They can go to YouTube to find a podcast. It's on Raven International Television if you have Roku, Amazon Fire and all those things and can dial in that way. And we're also on iHeartRadio, so you might find it under the name the Voice of Leadership, which is the main name, or under Dr. Karen Speaks Leadership, because we have a couple different names depending on our venue.
Andrew Cohn: Well, I'll tell you anyone who's listening, if you want to find it, you'll find it. Because it's in so many places. You can't say I couldn't find it. Yeah, you could find it. And if you have trouble finding it, you can contact me as well and I'll share with you how to find it and give yourself time because there are so many podcast episodes with so many different leaders that you interview in addition to your own episodes where you're just sharing about a concept of an idea of leadership and practices and what you've seen and some examples. There's so much wisdom out there. To come back to that wisdom theme.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Thank you so much. And I would share this to Andrew since you mentioned it, and that is, you know, sometimes people think that if you are a person of deep faith, which I really am, I'm also open minded. And so if anyone just wants to talk and explore and maybe they don't come from that faith tradition, I'm open to a conversation with them as well.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Well, I appreciate that openness. I appreciate your generosity and sharing some of your wisdom and your enthusiasm and your personal experience. I'm thinking back to the experience you shared about that PhD and like, wow, that's really hard to believe. And it was some time ago, not too long ago, but some time ago. And I'm grateful for that. Well, I expect that that's no longer the case in graduations. I'm grateful that it's not. Thank you for being a pioneer and for continuing to do the work you do. And I'm grateful to be in your constellation, Dr. Karen.
Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks: Grateful to be in yours too. I really appreciate being on your show. I appreciate knowing you. Thank you so much for the invitation.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you.
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