From Ashram to Boardroom: The Energy of Authentic Leadership, with Anna Pool
Have you ever walked into a room and instantly felt the energy shift before a single word was spoken? What if leadership isn’t just about what you say or do, but the energy you broadcast every day?
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn sits down with executive coach Anna Pool to explore the true frequency of leadership and how our internal state quietly shapes every meeting, decision, and connection. Anna’s story is extraordinary. She spent 20 years in an ashram devoted to meditation, yoga, and service before her spiritual community collapsed under the weight of betrayal. That loss became her greatest teacher, leading her from the ashram to the boardroom, where she now helps leaders embody authentic, energetic presence.
Together, they unpack Dr. David Hawkins’ Map of Consciousness and what it reveals about courage, fear, and the “green zone” of leadership, where creativity and clarity thrive. Anna shares how awareness and intention can transform not only your leadership, but the very atmosphere around you.
It’s a fascinating look at how to lead with your energy, not just your words, and why what you broadcast matters more than you think.
Key Takeaways
Your Energy Precedes You: Leaders are constantly broadcasting an emotional frequency that directly impacts team morale, engagement, and psychological safety.
The Map of Consciousness: A visual model for understanding emotional states, from reactive, low-frequency zones (shame, fear, anger) to creative, high-frequency zones (courage, acceptance, love).
Courage is the Threshold: Effective, purposeful leadership becomes consistently accessible at the level of "Courage," where we move from reactivity to possibility and choice.
Non-Judgmental Self-Awareness is Key: The most critical skill for spiritual and leadership growth is the ability to observe your own state without criticism, creating space for conscious change.
Practical Resets Work: Simple interventions like brief guided meditations or "green zone exercises" can quickly shift a group's energy, leading to more productive and insightful outcomes.
Executive Presence Reimagined: The elusive quality of "executive presence" is deeply connected to one's ability to broadcast calm, confident, and creative frequencies.
In This Episode:
[00:01] Anna’s ashram years and early awakening
[04:44] What led her to drop out of college and join the community
[08:41] Roles and leadership within the ashram
[09:51] Marriage, vows, and challenges of communal life
[10:49] The scandal that changed everything
[12:57] Transitioning from ashram life to professional coaching
[16:07] Discovering Dr. David Hawkins’ Map of Consciousness
[20:42] The importance of non-judgmental self-awareness
[23:36] Connecting spiritual insight to corporate leadership
[24:48] The “green zone” and the courage frequency
[30:38] Feeling versus thinking, how emotion drives energy
[33:09] How leaders broadcast energy and influence others
[36:13] Introducing spirituality in business without alienating teams
[38:18] Redefining executive presence through vibrational leadership
[41:17] Anna’s book on possibility thinking
[42:21] The “green zone” mindfulness exercise
[43:31] Why energy work belongs in every leadership toolkit
[45:07] Where to find and connect with Anna
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Anna Pool
Andrew Cohn
Referenced
David Hawkins — Map of Consciousness Explained
Music:
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Transcript
Anna Pool: I dropped out of a four year college program where I had a full scholarship and was studying Russian of all things, and I joined his ashram, or spiritual community, and I ended up living there. Unfortunately, it was revealed to us that the teacher, the guru who we had so much loyalty to, had been abusing women sexually and also embezzling money. So much challenge and yet I have to say, for all of the disappointment and heartbreak that I experienced at the ending of the ashram, I value what I learned there so, so deeply. There was so much powerful insight through the practice of yoga, all the various branches of yoga that I mentioned earlier. And I do feel that I was set up in a very unique way to be very successful as an executive coach in ways that I don't even really understand myself all the time.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. I'm very happy to introduce this next conversation with Anna Pool. Anna is an executive coach and leadership consultant who comes from a very different background. She talks a bit about her 20 years in an ashram in the Northeast United States. As she has told me, that sort of establishes her spiritual street cred, if you will. She talks about her evolution into coaching work, into the professional services space. And we spent a lot of time talking about energetic leadership, about emotional frequencies that we all have as individuals, and moving along the spectrum of emotional frequencies. She shares a map of consciousness originally developed by David Hawkins and what these different dimensions of emotional frequencies mean at different levels and very importantly, the impact that these frequencies have on one's awareness, effectiveness and on leadership. As Anna says, we are broadcasting these energies all the time. They have great impact. And this is really what executive presence is really all about, is broadcasting these types of frequencies. Enjoy the conversation. It's a rich conversation about her story and about the practical relevance of our energies and how we broadcast authentically and consistently. I know you'll enjoy it. Welcome back to the podcast and welcome Anna Pool. I'm so happy that you're with us and you're a relatively new friend and colleague a couple of years. And as we talked about your participating in the podcast, I learned all these wonderful, fascinating things about you and your background and what you do and who you are, which I'd love to get into. So first, welcome to the podcast.
Anna Pool: Wow.Thank you so much, Andrew. I'm really touched that you invited me to join you here this morning. Thank you. I love talking with like minded souls like you about this kind of topic because I think there's so much for us to unpack together and so really, really big thank you. I appreciate it.
Andrew Cohn: Of course, I'm so grateful to have these conversations. And through the miracle of zoom, who, wherever you may be, you're relatively close to me geographically, it's unusually close for this podcast. But zoom is zoom, the great equalizer, if you will. The Internet.
Anna Pool: That's right. I'm in Durango, Colorado, for those of you who are curious, which is in right in the Four Corners region, so six hours southwest of Denver. And it's beautiful, beautiful region. And we are in fire season, so we're all looking around very carefully and sniffing the air. Anything you know.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Well, I hope that goes smoothly. We've had some of that in Northern New Mexico as well, for sure. Even just in the last couple of weeks. So when you talk about talking with like minded souls, which is certainly me and I think our listeners as well, and talking about this topic. So what attracted you when I started talking about this podcast, I mean, we're going to get into your background and your story and your practice, but what attracted you to this and where should we start?
Anna Pool: I think we should start with a little bit about my background because I have such an unusual background. And I think without that, a lot of my story at least doesn't totally make sense to me. But when you place it in the context of my history and my past experiences, I think you can kind of see there's a red thread being pulled through my life. That kind of makes a lot of sense.
Andrew Cohn: All right, let's start as far back as you'd like to.
Anna Pool: Okay. On the day I was born. Now let's fast forward. So When I was 18 in 1976, I fell in love with an Eastern Indian guru. Now, I had never had any contact with gurus or Eastern mysticism before that, but I had a very powerful awakening experience in his presence. And as a result of that, I dropped out of four year college program where I had a full scholarship and was studying Russian, of all things. And I joined his ashram, or spiritual community and I ended up living there. I chose to live there for 20 years, so until 1996. I mean, who does that, right?
Andrew Cohn: Well, some people do it. It's wonderful. And what'd your parents have to say about that choice?
Anna Pool: Well, my mother cried. She was of course, deeply disappointed that I was leaving my scholarship. And my father was slightly intrigued, but kind of skeptical, like, this is probably a mistake dear.
Andrew Cohn: She'll figure that out in due course.
Anna Pool: Exactly right.
Andrew Cohn: Got it.
Anna Pool: And so from there I was suddenly immersed in a residential community of people, all who were all taken discipleship from this teacher. This was a facility on the east coast in the US where we all took discipleship. I got a Sanskrit name which is Pandavi, which comes from the Bhagavad Gita. It's the name of a group of brothers who fought the good fight. If you ever have a chance to read the Bhagavad Gita, it's an amazing story. And so we stepped into this lifestyle of, for example, the daily schedule. We would rise at 4 o'clock, we would jog in groups. There was a fast group, a medium group and a slug group. So here we are, 4:30 in the morning, jogging around in the pitch dark. And then we would go to various yoga rooms where we would practice different levels of yoga. We would practice Pranayam, which is breathing exercises, meditation, and also Sanskrit chanting. By then it was about 6:30 or 7:00 clock and we would have breakfast and then start what was called Guru Seva or service to the Guru. I should explain the whole idea of this particular path was that by devotion and service and obedience to the guru and his teachings, it would awaken us. It would enlighten each of us to our own spiritual attainment. So let me pause there and see how all this is landing for you, Andrew.
Andrew Cohn: Well, it sounds like a full day by the time you start the service portion of the day. Quick question though. When you talk about yoga, you're talking about the physical pose yoga that most of us in the US are thinking about, right?
Anna Pool: Yeah. There's many branches of yoga and so we practice, I think almost all of them. Karma yoga is the yoga of service and non attachment. So that's why the service of the guru is considered just service. We were not paid for that. We didn't get recognition for that. It was just service, service. Bhakti Yoga or devotional yoga was the chanting that we did. Jnana Yoga, the yoga of meditation and then Hatha Yoga, which is the yoga of postures. Yoga asanas that we're all very, very familiar with. Although I have to say, at that time, yoga was a weird thing to be into. And so when I would go home and, you know, for a little visit or something and try and explain to neighbors and friends what I was doing, there were a lot of raised eyebrows. It was like, wow.
Andrew Cohn: And that. I'm presuming that the way you're saying it's like, that would be different now. It's a little bit more popular, accepted part of the culture in the U.S. exactly.
Anna Pool: I think we have a much broader context for what yoga is now. I mean, Lulu, man Lululemon makes yoga pants, right? I mean, there were no yoga pants when I was in the ashram.
Andrew Cohn: Got it. Okay. So that's how your day starts. Please continue. Say more, please.
Anna Pool: Okay, sure. So I did a number of different jobs as my seva, or service to the guru, and one of my jobs was to be his photographer. So I was privileged to go around and take pictures of him and also pictures of the ashram for marketing purposes. I also eventually got kind of pulled into management and leadership. And at one point, I was running a division of about a hundred people, all of our guest services areas because we kind of morphed into this guest service facility where we'd have 15,000 guests a year coming for programs in Wham. (I am not sure if “Wham” is right?) Yeah, yoga, meditation, stress reduction, massage, Ayurveda. It was wonderful. Lots and lots of guests coming in. So there was a big service component to just take care of the guests as well. And then eventually I ended up on faculty and began teaching programs, which was a lot of fun. And throughout that, I also led kirtan chanting, or Sanskrit chanting pretty much the whole time I was there. So that was-has always been an important part of my practice as well. So I think I started developing a sensitivity to sound and frequencies at a pretty young age. And we'll kind of tap back into that a little later.
Andrew Cohn: Wonderful. So you're there 20 years now. My understanding is it was 20 years, but part of that was also. You met your husband there, right?
Anna Pool: That's correct. So my husband was there for 15 years, and I think I was there for 11 or 12 years when we actually met and got married. Now, you have to understand, we took vows of celibacy, so marriage was a bit frowned on. And in fact, when we fell in love and confessed, if you want to call it that, to the administration, they sent him to another ashram and separated us and told us no contact. And that was a sobering experience, I will say. But after a year of separation, he was brought back and they asked us, do you still want to get married? And we're like, yes. So we did get married. And sometimes people say, how do you get married at the ashram? And the correct response would be against all odds persistently.
Andrew Cohn: Right. Wow. Okay. And you're still married?
Anna Pool: Yes, we are still married. I think it's been 36 or seven years. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Wonderful. So you're there 20 years. And where did you go from there and how did it lead you ultimately, we'll talk about what you're doing today, but what happened next?
Anna Pool: One of the things I learned when I was running this division of about a hundred people was that I was a natural coach, a leadership coach. And because I knew that because the people that I was working with, as my direct reports, kept being pulled and promoted into other of the organization, like over and over and over. You know, no one even talked about coaching as a leadership function back then. It was very mysterious thing that we just sort of did as managers. But I began to realize, oh, I've got some skill in this. Which was a good thing for me to realize because right around 19, oh my goodness, 1994 or 5, I think it was probably 95, it was revealed to all of us. Now think about this. There were now about 350 full time residents living at the ashram as Desire.? It was a nonprofit, but it was a big operation, a lot happening. Unfortunately, it was revealed to us that the teacher, the guru, who we had so much loyalty to, had been abusing women sexually and also embezzling money. So this was pretty heartbreaking for a lot of us who had invested so much time and focus there. And my husband and I kind of looked at each other and said, time for a reset. And the ashram really changed from a volunteer nonprofit organization into a paid organization with over the years, a more traditional kind of nonprofit. So we made the choice to move to Durango, Colorado. At this point, we also had a year old son. So lots of learning took place very quickly because we had to learn how to manage money. We suddenly owned a car, we had to pay rent, we had to pay taxes, we had to find jobs. I mean, there was a lot that happened, but I was really fortunate that I got a job in a professional services firm in Durango and immediately began using my coaching. I went back to school and got a master's degree in organizational development and began working with some wonderful clients through this organization called Lore International Institute. And so I like, almost immediately exposed to the idea of executive coaching, facilitation training and all of that. So that kind of popped me into this next level of creating a profession out of what I had learned that I was both good at and really loved to do.
Andrew Cohn: Wow. So what was it like for you to just kind of re-enter as an adult? Right. As somebody, a woman in her mid, late 30s or something at that point? First of all, good for Lore for going, wait, we see something in this woman whose path is. I mean, I'm assume that's a different path than what they typically hire, but I could be wrong.
Anna Pool: Oh, my God, Andrew, you're so right. I was terrified to go for the interview there because my resume, like, wow, it all said, you know, the name of the ashram on it, all these different jobs that I had done. But I made a really nice connection with the CEO, and thank God for him. I think he did feel that I had a certain awareness or talent in this whole area around coaching and facilitation. And so he brought me in, and it was a really, really great fit. And back to your earlier question. The amount of transition that my husband and I went through, wow, unbelievable. I mean, it was incredibly stressful financially. We really, honestly didn't have money at all. We were on government assistance for a while, and it took a while to really rebuild financially, practically, psychologically, emotionally, professionally.
Andrew Cohn: Well, it sounds like it's not even rebuilding. It's building. Right, right. It's as if, you know, if someone who had not gone to university or even had or had not gone to the ashram, she'd be stepping into the world and doing what you did 20 years later.
Anna Pool: Exactly.
Andrew Cohn: Although you had a kid in your pocket.
Anna Pool: Yes, we had a kid, and then soon another one. We had a daughter about a year later. So, yeah, just so much challenge. And yet I have to say, for all of the disappointment and heartbreak that I experienced at the ending of the ashram, I value what I learned there so, so deeply. There was so much powerful insight through the practice of yoga, all the various branches of yoga that I mentioned earlier. And I do feel that I was set up in a very unique way to be very successful as an executive coach in ways that I don't even really understand myself all the time. But again, we'll get to this idea of maybe what has been working for me, you know, what has been helping me be successful in my career.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, of course. It's interesting. You remind me of something sometimes. People will say to me, well, your background is different. They say, to me, I was a litigator in traditional law firm in the California litigation system. The wacky world of litigation. Very, very unusual background for coaching. I mean, I don't think it’s as unusual as yours, but sometimes I think these different backgrounds can really help us, particularly when we're working with colleagues, et cetera. And we can just bring a couple of different colors to the palette.
Anna Pool: I think so, too. There is a real strength in that diversity. And I've had so many of my clients tell me, anna, there's something just different about you in a good way. They're very nice to say it's in a good way. And I think one of the things is practicality, because I went through all those experiences of having to kind of adjust and build a new life. I'm very practical, I'm very business focused, despite all of the alternative insights that I bring to the work.
Andrew Cohn: Well, you talked about running a division of 100 people. There are a lot of people there that could have potentially been doing that. And there you are, especially as a fairly young woman, doing that. So, yeah, good for you. So the skills were seen. You were put into a position. So should we go straight to talking a little bit about some of the energetic leadership you're talking about?
Anna Pool: I think we're at a good moment for that. Thank you, Andrew. In a moment, I'm going to share a slide of something called the Map of Consciousness. It's by Dr. David Hawkins. And I know Andrew's going to put a white paper that I wrote about that in the link below this, so you can definitely check that out if you're interested. But a few years ago, I came across this map, and it was kind of one of those eureka moments for me, because suddenly something that I had sensed and felt and intuited and talked to clients about and studied for my own insight suddenly was there in front of me, like, blazing in full color. And I think I'm just going to bring this up and show it to you, because it is. So hopefully you can all see this.
Andrew Cohn: And when did you first see this? How did it come to your attention?
Anna Pool: It was a couple of years ago, and honestly, I think I just stumbled on it on the Internet. I mean, it was some crazy thing. I wish I could say, oh, I was diligently researching this with this in mind. No, it was one of those serendipitous moments. But I'll tell you my reaction when I saw it. I just kind of went like, whoa, wow, wow, wow. Look at this. Now I can first of all understand for myself what's going on with me and Now I can help my clients also understand. So let me back up and talk a little bit about. David Hawking Hawkins was an American psychologist who morphed into a spiritual teacher. He used applied kinesiology or muscle testing to determine the hertz levels of various human emotions.
Andrew Cohn: Hertz meaning more like energetic, not pain, just to be clear.
Anna Pool: Okay, thank you. Thank you. Yes, hertz level, so the, you know, frequency, the vibrational frequency of various human emotions. And he's no longer alive, but he developed a. I think he's written nine books. I've read one of them so far. But he has a strong body of work around all of this and I'd recommend anyone who wants to learn more to check out some of his books on Amazon. But in a nutshell, this map of consciousness shows us how the hertz levels or frequency of vibrations of various emotions move up, starting at the bottom with things like shame and humiliation, all the way up to enlightenment and inspiration. Now for me, and I hope some of you are having little light bulbs go off in your head because we try and talk about the importance of things like consciousness, but how often do we have a visual that really kind of lays it out in a way that we can start to think about it? So let me just make a few notes with you about this. We can see that the red and the pink energy areas are the areas where we have the lowest hertz levels. And one of my observations about myself when I'm in these lower levels, and I certainly go through them all at different times, and I think most of us do, but when I'm in those lower red levels, I really can't remember who I am and what I mean by who I am. I mean who I am as a spirit, who I am as a being, who I am as consciousness. And this was something that I really did learn in the ashram through all that yoga practice was to really understand. It was revealed to me who I am at a deeper level. And of course, I have a personality, I have a physical body. All of that is respect worthy and it's fine. But always for me, a practice is to remember who I really am at the level of spirit. And what I observe is that when I'm vibrating in these levels of consciousness, it's very, very hard for me to remember who I am.
Andrew Cohn: So if you're listening what Anna's discussing here. So this visual is a graph, if you will, with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or so different colors with red at the bottom moving up to pink and then yellow and then green. And then blue and then purple at the top. And you're talking about that cluster of these negative, for lack of a better term, emotional levels down at the bottom. And what the graph is showing, the column is our frequency, and the lower frequencies are at the bottom. And that's where you're starting and sharing this with us. And then discussions of emotional levels, emotional states and view of life at each of these levels. And one of the things that I appreciate about, and it's implicit in what you're saying, but I want to call it out, is down at the bottom there. And the lower levels you're talking about where you became aware at the ashram of that there's more, if you will. Right. This, spiritual dimensions, et cetera, which we've often talked about this podcast. But I also want to identify that at the ashram you probably became quite capable of understanding when you were connected to that and when you weren't. So not only did you have a belief system or an awareness of what you are really, but you also developed perhaps a regular dexterity with understanding. Am I in touch with that or am I not? Is that fair to say?
Anna Pool: Wow, Andrew, thank you so much for calling that up. That is absolutely true. And I think one of the effects of living for 20 years in a spiritual community is that spiritual growth starts to live less in our mind as an idea, a belief or a concept, and it becomes more integrated in our physical body, in our emotional body. There's just a deeper level of integration. And so, yes, I think I did become sensitized to noticing when I feel connected to myself, to the universe, to other people, when I feel disconnected and more in some of those denser, lower kind of reddish pink energies. So I would just suggest for all of us listening that this is a wonderful inquiry to just notice in any given moment, where am I at? What color? I think of it in colors. What color am I at? And to make it a really effective inquiry, it's really important for us to practice what we call non judgmental self awareness. And I'm going to do a quick story here. So my teacher's teacher, Babaji, came to the ashram and lived with us for four years. He was a true saint. He meditated 10 hours a day. He took lifetime vows of poverty and celibacy and silence. He wrote on a slate. He honestly vibrated in this purple area which those of you can't see is enlightenment, inspiration, peace and bliss. He literally vibrated in that manner all the time. And so to be with him and to be around him, and listen to him was truly a privilege. And one time we, the disciples asked him a question. We wanted to know, Babaji, what is the most important quality for a spiritual seeker? And we thought he said 10 hours a day of meditation, lifetime celibacy, all the really hard stuff.
Andrew Cohn: What you're talking about is all those behaviors, all those actions, all that doing.
Anna Pool: That's right. And instead he said, oh, non judgmental self awareness. We're like, huh? What? Duh. And he said, you have to be able to observe yourself with great accuracy without becoming discouraged. Because what you will see is where you're falling short of where you want to be if you're really noticing yourself. So anyway, I would urge all of us to practice non judgmental self awareness as we look at this chart, because we're going to dip into all these different colors at different times. But the question is, are we noticing it? Are we aware of it? And are we using lifestyle hacks and practices to help ourselves kind of move out of fear? One of my observations right now is that there's so much fear in the world, Andrew. I mean, I don't know about you, but I find the news is a little bit overwhelming almost every day. And so I pretty much don't listen to it very much.
Andrew Cohn: Absolutely. One thing that I just. I don't want to let this slip by, but I'd love to plant the seed that as please walk through this, but circle back to you know, you talked about how this living saint talked about non judgmental self awareness as the most important characteristic of a spiritual seeker. I might argue it's a very important characteristic of leadership. And I'd love to come back to that.
Anna Pool: Yes, I think it's time for me to start stitching this in with leadership.
Andrew Cohn: Okay, bring in that thread that you're stitching with.
Anna Pool: So, yes, thank you for that. So let's fast forward. I've left the ashram. I've gotten through those, you know, really difficult five years maybe of tough transition. Now I'm a certified executive coach. I actually started my own business called Executive Savvy. And I'm busy. I'm working with clients all day long. I'm traveling, and I'm also working virtually with clients. And so I began to, I call it build a bridge between the ashram and corporate America in my own mind and heart. Because I realized somehow I have to translate the powerful teachings that I received in a way that's understandable to the average corporate leader. And so I didn't have this map yet, but I did have the teachings from Babaji about nonjudgmental self awareness. And so I think I was skillful at creating a very safe space for people to look at themselves objectively and go, what am I doing well and where do I want to improve without that drag of emotional frustration and disappointment and stuff like that.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Yeah, I love just the practical relevance of what you're talking about and what you've learned and what, where your skills and awareness were despite the fact that they were non-traditional or whatever. But hey, it matters.
Anna Pool: Yeah, it really does. I usually invite my clients to pick up some or start some kind of a mindfulness practice or exercise or some kind of lifestyle hack that helps them create more of what we call a green zone lifestyle. Because leadership, in my opinion, and I think this is backed up by David Hawkins too, really starts at about 200 hertz with courage, affirmation and our view of life is feasible, like what's possible. And I'm sure we can all think of leaders we've worked with who resonated more in kind of the red and pink zones, or some are more in the orange zones of pride or anger, scorn. You know, these are things that don't tend to foster hertz, successful teams and insightful discussions and different points of view. And so I really think that this 200 hertz is kind of the magic button for leadership where we start to really be able to create the kind of environments, the futures, the possibilities that we want to build around us.
Andrew Cohn: And what I'm seeing is that on the map that you're discussing that people will see when they see it, is that's right about sort of in the middle of the model, about halfway up from the lower frequencies to the higher frequencies, as you move from red at the bottom to purple at the top, and the green is just about in the center. And I'm also seeing that when you said view of life is feasible according to the graph here, I think this is where we're coming out of the defensive tendencies and the reactive tendencies and the survival tendencies or the survival priorities, if you will, focus more towards what's possible, creating proactive focus. Is that fair to describe it that way?
Anna Pool: Absolutely. Andrew, I love that you said that. I think of the word choice. So there's suddenly we're aware, oh my God, I have choices, I have options. I am not a victim. There is a tendency to either believe that I'm a victim or to be reactive to the idea that I'm a victim in some of these lower levels. And that really diminishes our power, really lose power. So if you think about who are some of the amazing leaders in our world, well, wow, they certainly showed great courage. They showed through their own power of choice. Like I'm going to stand up here and put out a dream and a vision. I'm thinking of Martin Luther King right now. I have a dream. I'm going to put out something that doesn't exist in today's world, but it's a possibility for tomorrow's world. And that to me, that, you know, tremendous green and probably blue energy here too, to really get that kind of vision.
Andrew Cohn: I'm associating it with. I don't know if you use the leadership circle profile assessment, but with the leadership circle talks about the reactive leadership styles as a cluster of complying and controlling and protecting as opposed to the creative leadership competencies around relating self awareness, authenticity, achieving and systems awareness. Just another way of looking at it another way visual. It's a wonderful, wonderful assessment, but I think you're okay. So courage and about 200 Hz on the energetic scale, if you will, as measured at least by David Hawkins, by the way. I think it's Hawkins. Or is it Hawking? But we'll clarify that.
Anna Pool: But anyway, okay, we'll clarify that.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, clarify that. So he used applied Kinesiology. I'm curious to know whether other practitioners or other people working with this use other methods other than that, because I'm assuming there's other ways to measure these frequencies that someone might be experiencing. Is that accurate?
Anna Pool: You know, it's a really good question and I don't know the answer. It may be. There are some people who are intuitives, I guess you would say, and they sort of have a way of knowing directly this. But I have not seen this body of work represented through another measurement system yet. I mean, one of my hopes is that this gets picked up by more and more practitioners like us, Andrew, because I think it really provides this kind of roadmap of like, where am I now and where do I want to be? I mean, is there any of us that doesn't want to live in joy, serenity, love and reverence? I mean, the vast majority of us on the planet are absolutely looking for that kind of an experience.
Andrew Cohn: So just to be clear, when we're talking about the ability to help someone recognize where they are in this model at a particular time through applied kinesthesiology muscle testing. So is that something that. Where you need to be physically present with someone, or can you do it virtually or how does that work for you? Do you show them how to do it so they can use some sort of kinesthesiology to ascertain where they are at the moment?
Anna Pool: There are self testing methods like using the thumb and index finger and thumb and then pressing. Give me a strong. Give me a weak.
Andrew Cohn: Yes, I've done it that way.
Anna Pool: However, I will say I am not a kinesiologist and so I'm not actually testing people to determine where they are. I use this more as a self assessment or a self reflection tool. Like Andrew. If we were working together, I might say, Andrew, take a look at this map and tell me what color you are today and then we can talk about where you are and what's got you there, if it's something that you want to work with. And what are some practices, insights, conversations that might help you lift a little bit higher if you want to. So I use it more like an inquiry tool at this point than anything else.
Andrew Cohn: I see. All right, so interesting. So you're able to share, apply, get value from this model, teach people to understand where they are, why it matters, et cetera, find themselves on the map even without something that looks like I need to see the number or I need to measure the frequency precisely or something like that. It's relatable that way. Beautiful. Okay. Cause I could see the value if you're working with me. There's a part of my brain that says, wait, show me, help me understand where I am.
Anna Pool: Well, I can also ask questions. Like one question that I might ask one is, well, how are you feeling in terms of your feeling empowered? Are you feeling like you're looking at your day and you're feeling like, I've got choices, I've got options, I feel optimistic. I feel like I can move forward with this. Are you feeling a little pulled down, like, oh, life feels a little disappointing right now. I've got some anxiety going on. Again, non judgmental self awareness because none of this works if we're judging ourselves. But it's a wonderful tool for self inquiry and we can ask each other questions to determine where we think we are.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful. I love it. Well, I think, look, the important thing is that if you're working with me, the important thing is that I can follow where we are and I can understand and feel the difference. And I imagine that's a word we haven't used in this conversation yet. But is this a feeling thing? Is this an intuitive thing? How do you describe this and what is it for most people that you're working with. How do they get it?
Anna Pool: There's a great diagram that I share with my clients and unfortunately I don't have it here. But it basically asserts that we feel before we think like we are animals, we're instinctual animals at the core. And we look at some roses and we have a feeling, and then perhaps a thought follows the feeling. We see someone who reminds us of our great aunt Agnes who we didn't have a good relationship with. And we have a feeling that before we even think. Right. So we are already creatures, vibrational creatures, creatures of feelings and emotions. And yet it's interesting that this aspect of us doesn't really get delineated, talked about, inquired into. And just think for a minute, Andrew, if have you ever, like been in a conference room in a corporate setting and a leader comes in, who's the leader of the group and they are distracted, they're rushed, they're overwhelmed, they're anxious, and they're slightly snappy. What would you say is the result on your emotional frequencies? What would you say happens to you?
Andrew Cohn: Well, the first thing that occurred to me, and it may not be a frequency, but you can help me position it, the first thing is that if I'm working with that person, and especially if my assumption or expectation is that person is in charge and they're in the leadership role, is that I feel a little bit not taken care of. I feel there's a little bit of risk here. I don't feel like the person's really in charge of the space. So I feel a little bit, I don't wanna say in danger, that's an extreme. But I feel a little bit, you know, the space feels unsettled, it's not as clear, it's not as well lit, if you will.
Anna Pool: I love that well lit because to me now, let's think of the opposite of that same conference room. You're there, group comes in, the leader comes in. The leader is smiling, he's authentically excited to be there. He's lit up well lit with creativity, inspiration, ideas. Like, what's the impact on you then?
Andrew Cohn: Well, first of all, there's a partnership here. The previous state you talked about is like, that's where the leader is and I'm somewhere else, hopefully, because I don't want to get brought into that. But then, no, in this state, it's more like, great. I feel more confident, I feel more comfortable, more optimistic. We're going to get something done. Yeah, I'm feeling better, I'm feeling happier. I mean, definitely moving up this model to your point.
Anna Pool: And see, this is the thing we don't tend to, at least to my knowledge. We haven't really talked about these emotional frequencies this clearly before. And yet if you think about what a powerful impact they have on our life day after day after day. And as leaders, we need to be aware. And this is something I really stress with my clients, that we are broadcasting frequencies all the time, whether we're aware of them or not. And we need to be in an inquiry, in my belief system, of what are the frequencies I want to broadcast, what do I want to communicate and send to the people that I'm working closely with so that we can all lift up a little higher and be a little more. I love the word coherence so much because I think when we are in these green and blue zones, we really hit a place, or we can hit a place of really deep coherence with each other and with solutions for problems that we're constantly having to solve as leaders. There's something very beautiful to me about these green and blue energies.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, well, beautiful. And it reminds me of a word that we talked about in advance of this call, which is that these energies are contagious. Right. Leader walks into the room, it's like he or she is going to have. There's the shadow of leadership, the wake, if you will, and it's going to have an impact on the room, especially if there's an expectation, again, that the person's in charge. If the intern walks in and they're feeling this way, it may not impact the room quite the same way. But yeah, so these things are contagious. And so how do we tune in to broadcast? In the correct frequency, if you will. But back to this model, because especially if people are listening. So down at the bottom, where the red is that the emotional levels are shame and guilt and apathy. And then we move up. Well, actually, I'm just going to read them from the bottom to the top. So from the bottom up, from the lowest to the highest, from the red to the purple. Shame. Moving to guilt, apathy, grief, fear, desire. Then anger. Interesting. Anger is just about halfway up. Then pride. And then we get into the green zone. Courage, neutrality, willingness. The tone is shifting here. Then we move up into the blue. Acceptance, reason. Then love and joy. And into the purple, it's peace and enlightenment. So there's a lot to unpack there just with those words and what they conjure, what they mean for us.
Anna Pool: Yeah, no, there's so much here I keep learning. Just sometimes I just sit and stare at it for, you know, stare it for a while because I'm like, I'm just trying to, like, take it really into my whole system so that I really get a deeper and deeper insight into it.
Andrew Cohn: One of the things I've talked a lot about on this podcast is how people talk about things, things that might be deemed spiritual, at least to some people. And I try to stay away from that label because it's not important. But for some people, they may label it that way. I would say that for you, this touches on the spiritual dimension. And so how do you talk about this in a way where a leader or a client or a leadership team with whom you're working might kind of like, okay, this is a little out there. How do you introduce this and translate it for them without diluting it, of course, so that they can get the value of the power of this without necessarily. Maybe they don't resonate with all of the language. That's okay. How do you interpret? How do you translate in order to get traction?
Anna Pool: Gosh, what a great question. In my one on one executive coaching sessions, I have more time to kind of build context over a few sessions and then gradually. And one of the things I talk about is when we're in these red and pink zones, we really have very little access to the prefrontal cortex. This is a fact. Anyone who's studied emotional intelligence knows this already. Instead, we're pretty much tightly lit to the amygdala, that gland of the fight or flight gland. And so many of my clients have lesser great degrees, anger management issues, maybe. Abrupt styles tend to be too reactive, not taking time to bring people in when they need to be brought. And I call those all red zone behaviors. So I link them very tightly to behaviors that are problematic for the person that we already know, we've already established together. These are something they want to work on. And so it's interesting because people's reaction to this, while you might think, wow, it's kind of airy, fairy or weird in some ways, quite to the contrary, I had one chief digital officer at one of the largest information systems in the, I guess around the globe actually say to me, how come somebody didn't sit down and explain this to me? Like, you know, and I thought it's a good question, like this would be something that we could. Because then we can talk about. Okay, so can you notice when you're in the red zone, number one, can you accept you're in the red zone? So stop fighting it. Can you accept that you're in the red zone and then can you adjust your behavior? And the adjustment might simply be, I'm just going to be a little quieter on this meeting and take notes, you know, and. And then I'm going to look at my notes and go, is this something I want to share or is this something that maybe I would share later offline or something like that. So, you know, very simple adjustments that we can make that allow us to kind of not continue to create these recurring cycles of challenge as leaders.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. What more would you like to say about this? We kind of veered off as you were talking about initially. Courage is where really more deliberate, purposeful. My term leadership tends to emerge when we're out of the reactive tendencies or the lower part of the model.
Anna Pool: Yeah. I think there's one more point I'd like to make organizations. In my experience, corporations are always on the hunt for executive presence. You know, it's kind of that interesting word like, well, I know it when I see it. And different organizations have different interpretations of what that means. But my observation of executive presence is that it has a lot to do with our emotional frequencies. And that when that leader walks in the room like we were talking about before, they're feeling confident, they're feeling creative, they're feeling full of possibility and choice, they're feeling inclusive for the people around them that more and more this is the kind of executive presence that leaders need, that fosters collaboration, engagement, involvement, insight in everyone around them versus the old school, kind of more like hierarchical, power focused executive presence that was maybe in some ways a little bit more down in the pink and even, I don't know, probably just the pink zones anyway. I just leave you with that reflection of pretty much every organization that I work with at the senior level. They're trying to hire people who have these unique, I call it something extra. Right. That something extra qualities. And I think this goes a long way towards explaining what is that something extra? It's not something we can fake. It is really something because it's just a resonance or a broadcast or a vibration that emanates from us. And that's an inside job for how to build that and create that.
Andrew Cohn: I'm going to put a word out and I don't know if it fits. It's sort of a word that can sometimes be loaded a little bit. But as you talk about it, leaders have that thing. Do you think that the word charisma fits anywhere in here? What do you think?
Anna Pool: I love that, Andrew. I bet if we go back and study the roots of the word charisma. And now I'm going to have to do that because I'm dying to know. But I bet.
Andrew Cohn: Well, actually, excuse me for interrupting. I spoke with a gentleman on this podcast recently and he talked about charisms and these different dimensions, personal dimensions of ourselves. And a charism is a spiritual gift.Perhaps that's the root.
Anna Pool: I think so. I think these are spiritual gifts. Wow. I think they're gifts to ourselves because we get to then inhabit those beautiful states of consciousness. But they're also really powerful gifts to our world, especially right now where there is so much red zone energy. And we all, you know, we can all get into that. We can start doom scrolling and get scared and worry that we're going to kill each other all. In my view, we can also cultivate these emotional frequencies and begin to become broadcasters and transmitters of these higher frequencies. And I will say that that in and of itself is leadership, Andrew. It really, really is. Whether we're the clerk at the grocery store or the lifeguard at the rec center or a CEO of a major corporation of America, it's still energetic leadership and it's still, in my view, makes a real difference in the world. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. That's just beautiful. So I'd love to wind this down a little bit, in part because it's. I love how you're talking about this and of course we always want to leave the audience wanting more. So where would people go for more information about this, about you, about this work?
Anna Pool: I think the white paper that I've written would be a nice place to start. We'll also put information about David Hawkins in the link below. That's another place to go to. I would also mention if you're interested in possibility thinking, I have co authored a book called Creating Futures that Matter, Facilitating Change through Shared Vision. And it's with a Norwegian colleague of mine and it's all about how do you take a group into the future and design together the ideal outcome to a given problem or opportunity that you're facing in an organization? And so that's another way of kind of. It's so powerful. It lifts everyone up into the blue and the green zone almost immediately when we're asking them, what do you see? What's possible for you?
Andrew Cohn: So that's an approach to possibility thinking. Yes. That you highlight in that book. Beautiful. And that also. And what I'm implicit here is that relies on some attention being paid to these frequencies and bringing that to the discussion.
Anna Pool: Yes, we do a little green zone exercise each time before we move into the future.
Andrew Cohn: Can you give an example of what a green zone exercise might be?
Anna Pool: Sure. A green zone exercise, I say to people, you can close your eyes or not, it doesn't matter. And then we begin with the breath. I mean, it's very much a mindfulness practice. So we take in some deep breaths and allow our shoulders to relax, allow our bodies to relax, and then kind of bringing ourselves back to the present. So the mind has a tendency to kind of go everywhere all at once. And so we just bring the. Ask the mind to come back and focus on the breath coming into the moment, releasing any concerns about the future, anything that might be distracting us or dysregulating us. I also teach a process for grounding, which is very interesting, and also reconnecting into our higher sources of energy. And then, you know, it's amazing. We bring people back five to seven minutes later, and there's smiles and people are like, wow. And then we're ready to go.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and that's a beautiful example of just a simple intervention that we can do to shift. I mean, I would use the word. I think many of us would use the word. We're shifting our energy. Yeah, right. And that's what we're doing in a guided way. We have the ability to do that. And wonderful. What a great value add. Especially with a group. Especially then. Great. We've now shifted in some positive direction, and that will help us as we open up this important conversation, which is very practical on a business level.
Anna Pool: You know what? I would love to offer one piece of advice to your listeners as a parting shot, so to speak. I bet a lot of you are maybe sometimes hesitant to do a little brief meditation or visualization with your people, invite them to close their eyes because you think that's just too weird. And I would say, it's a new day, it's not too weird anymore. 9 times out of 10, just give it a try. Because I think you'll be amazed at. When you work with people at this vibrational and frequency level, the impact you can have, like, it doubles, it triples. It creates so much resonance in the room, and there's so much possible. So I would just. Or with your one client. So I would just encourage you to give it a try.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I love that encouragement. I have clients that I've worked with, and I'll come in to facilitate meetings with them, and I'll come in with my Tibetan 7 metal bowl. And I'll have clients that say, we need you to come to the meeting and bring the bowl. So just to hear that sound resonate and have 60 seconds of silence and let that sound move through the room and move through our bodies, et cetera. And you could say it alters our consciousness, our awareness, or you could just say it changes the energy it brings me present. And again, the language is less important than the experience and the impact. So that we can then get on to the business at hand to do it better.
Anna Pool: No Yeah. So, Andrew, really, thank you so much for being interested in all this and allowing me to share about it. It's exciting for me. Love any feedback, insights any of your listeners have. I think we're really kind of building this intersection of spirituality and leadership together.
Andrew Cohn: Yes.
Anna Pool: It's like I call it a quiet revolution. And let's keep the conversation going and keep building. There's so much to unpack here.
Andrew Cohn: And where would people find you if they were interested in contacting you? What's the best way? Your website, LinkedIn?
Anna Pool: LinkedIn is probably great. You can find me. It's Anna Pool. P O O L on LinkedIn and reach out, direct message me. Love to connect, love to get your thoughts, whatever. Really appreciate that, actually. Thank you.
Andrew Cohn: Great. Okay. Thank you so much, Anna. I love this conversation. There will be much more after this.
Anna Pool: Thank you so much. You have a great day Andrew.
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