Finding Grace in the Ashes: A Coach’s Journey Through Fire and Wisdom, with Stephen McGhee
Did you know that being truly present can impact your surroundings as much as an athlete's performance on the field? In this episode of Spirituality in Leadership, Andrew Cohn sits down with longtime friend, colleague, and leadership coach Stephen McGhee for a conversation about presence, wisdom, and leading from the inside out. Rather than offering formulas or techniques, Stephen shares a way of being, one rooted in listening, humility, and what he calls “keeping altitude.”
The conversation explores how spirituality shows up in leadership without being imposed through language or labels. Stephen introduces his idea of a “ladder of consciousness,” where service and love sit at the highest rungs, and explains why leaders do more good when they resist inflicting their own beliefs and instead stay curious about how others experience meaning and integrity.
A central theme is presence. Stephen reflects on how presence itself “pays,” not as a transaction, but because whatever we carry emotionally and spiritually gets transmitted into rooms, relationships, and decisions. Leaders, he suggests, shape outcomes simply by how present, grounded, and authentic they are.
Stephen also shares his personal experience of losing his home in the Pacific Palisades fires. He speaks candidly about grief, rejecting “toxic positivity,” and honoring the importance of process, allowing pain, meaning, and gratitude to unfold in their own time. Through this story, the principles of presence, listening, and acceptance become real and lived.
If you've faced unexpected hardship or seek ways to integrate spirituality practically into leadership and life, this episode is a must-listen.
Key Takeaways
Presence Pays: Authentic presence transmits energy and value; it's contagious and foundational to effective leadership and relationships.
Avoid Inflicting Language: Honor others' spirituality without imposing your own vernacular, keep "altitude" for genuine connection.
Listening as Mastery: True listening includes content, context, and inner self-awareness to respond freshly, not reactively.
Process Over Bypass: Grieve fully and avoid toxic positivity; proper processing turns pain into learning and strength.
Use Everything for Advancement: Cooperate with what is, accept without judgment, and trust that challenges contribute to soul growth.
Gratitude in the Present: Life's impermanence awakens deeper appreciation for moments, relationships, and unfolding grace.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Opening on spiritual guidance and not inflicting language
[00:29] The ladder of consciousness and keeping altitude
[02:38] How Andrew and Stephen met; shared spiritual community
[04:16] Stephen's corporate roots and shift to soul-aligned leadership
[07:34] Practical principles for inclusive spiritual conversations
[10:34] Presence pays and what that really means
[12:27] Authenticity in presence; impact on others
[14:18] Getting present before conversations
[15:41] The power of deep listening (content, context, inner)
[18:18] Avoiding labels and prejudice for better connection
[21:41] The Palisades Fire: Evacuation and immediate aftermath
[23:56] Toxic positivity vs. healthy processing
[26:44] Acceptance, grieving, and timing
[28:30] Returning to the site; small victories amid loss
[30:38] A profound sunset experience from the ashes
[35:38] Where to find Stephen's work
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Stephen McGhee
Andrew Cohn
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Transcript
Stephen McGhee: I don't plan a lot of stuff to begin with, you know, so this isn't a planned conversation. It's kind of like I'm being led by what comes through the spirit. And what just came through the spirit was I don't want to inflict on anybody. I don't inflict my specific language or vernacular. But then I'm open to discover and explore the spirituality of myself and another.
Andrew Cohn: How would you define that by keeping altitude as connected with non inflicting?
Stephen McGhee: I think of it in terms of a ladder. When I think of a ladder of consciousness, I would put at the top rungs of the ladder service consciousness and maybe love would be way up there.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. With us today is Stephen McGhee. Stephen is a California-based leadership coach, advisor, resource for leaders for many decades. Fascinating background, initially in the corporate world and succession planning in the banking industry and then transitioning to much deeper, more personal work that he was called to do. This is really a more personal conversation that he and I have based on some of the shared experiences and learning in communities that we have. And he just has a beautiful, easy way to speak about very, very important, meaningful, practical things. And he shares a bit about his experience of tragedy and loss within the past year, talking about some metaphors and principles of growth, what we can move toward, what we can move away from that's helpful in terms of growth and learning and just filled with a lot of wisdom. I'm grateful for the conversation. I know you'll enjoy it.
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so happy to have with me my California friend Steve McGhee and I expect we will be talking about California a bit in this conversation. Steve is a long term coach, colleague, friend, fellow traveler and there's a lot to get into here. So welcome to the podcast, Steve.
Stephen McGhee: I'm grateful to be here. I think you and I have kind of planted seeds to have this conversation off and on for a while. So here we are.
Andrew Cohn: Here we are indeed. Yeah, here we are indeed. Could you maybe start a little bit with kind of how we meet each other on the physical level, what you do in the world. And then, of course, I'll ask you a little bit about your journey and your connection to this topic of course.
Stephen McGhee: We have shared, like, we've probably. God knows when I met you physically, but I know that we've met spiritually. We have shared the same teacher and John Roger, the same community and msia, the movement of spiritual inner awareness. So I imagine it was in a training or. I don't really remember the first time. Maybe it was a prana or something like that.
Andrew Cohn: I think the first time we met was on the porch.
Stephen McGhee: At my Montecito cottage of course.
Andrew Cohn: In Montecito during COVID I think it was 2021. And what was interesting is that it was one of those experiences where I remember driving up there sometimes. I'm very aware that there's something about this journey because that was in such a magical place and that space was such a magical place with you and Hugh and that porch. Hugh is the dog, by the way, if you're listening and if you haven't met this beautiful animal. Yeah, beautiful sp. But I think that's where we met. But please continue.
Stephen McGhee: Well, I mean, it's one of these things where, you know, I feel like I've known you for a lot longer than I probably have. And, yeah, that was the first time we were physically together. And it was a wonderful, deep, meaningful time for me and conversation for me. And, you know, my roots to leadership and spirituality go way, way back to when I was in the financial services business on succession plan for executive leadership of a major corporation. And, boy, I loved so much about what I learning in the boardrooms and in leadership courses and this kind of thing. But I felt really off center in the organization in terms of my own soul, like, journey and my own integrity. So eventually I found my way out of corporate work and into doing leadership work on a global level way over 30 years ago. You know, I feel like now that I'm in my 60s, I'm finally just starting to get a deeper understanding of what this concept, this idea, this application of spirituality really is in terms of leadership.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And what you do now and how you work is a bit different than, you know, United bank and Trust from back in the day.
Stephen McGhee: Amen, brother. Amen.
Andrew Cohn: Was that in California, by the way?
Stephen McGhee: No, that goes back. I'm a native Coloradoan. I've been in California since 2020. Wanted to pivot to get some ocean experiences and just different life experiences and so here I am in California. But no, that bank starting off at United bank was back in Denver, Colorado.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. More traditional corporate role, recognizing, as you said. I don't know. Is the word disillusioned too strong a word to use?
Stephen McGhee: No, it's not. I was disillusioned and probably delusional both in the same breath. You know, I wanted it to work. I grew up with very meager beginnings. You know, my amazing mother, who is still doing yoga in her mid-80s, you know, she reared four kids pretty much on her own. My father was pretty much absent in terms of my growth and learning as a young adult. And so I had to kind of find my way. And so I was deep into anybody that could teach me how to be a better human being and to have a more graceful experience. And so that's where we started with meager beginnings and then along the path and started to understand that some of these irrefutable principles in terms of spirituality, when applied, really work. And they make life better, they make business better, they make my experience and fulfillment better in just anything and everything I do.
Andrew Cohn: So that begs the question, why don't we talk about some of those principles and how they apply? And one of the themes of this podcast, and we've talked about this, is how can we be very practical about conversations, about productive, inclusive conversations about things that might be called spiritual? Some people are very frontal with the use of that word. Others are more subtle. Not in a manipulative way, but it's sometimes in a deferential and respectful way. There's cultural differences. There's obviously individual differences we have with the whole term. I was in an online program recently, and somebody said, well, to me, spirituality is love. And somebody else said, I have a problem with that word, love, in my experience. And I felt her, wow, that's a really impactful thing for her to say. But it also reminded me, be careful about how I use words, because everybody's coming into the conversation with a different background and story, whatever it might be. So come gently. But in any case, so with that in mind, so please talk about some of these principles and in your experience, how they can be beneficial. But that's the whole idea.
Stephen McGhee: Well, I mean, just based on what you just said, Andrew, one comes to mind, like, I don't plan a lot of stuff to begin with, you know, so this isn't a planned conversation. It's kind of like I'm being led by what comes through the spirit. And what just came through the spirit was, I don't want to Inflict on anybody. So I might have a client, I might have a friend, I might have a family member. I might have an experience with someone as a barista in a coffee shop. And they may have a very deep spirituality, and yet they may not define it in the language that I would. And I don't want to miss that. Like, I've got clients who would never really lead with their spirituality. They might even keep it out of a conversation with me for six months. But that doesn't mean that they're not deeply attuned and deeply spiritual in terms of their experience, in terms of their ethos, in terms of their integrity, in terms of their honesty and their truth and how they navigate the world. So I always keep altitude on that. So I don't inflict my specific language or vernacular, but that I'm open to discover and explore the spirituality of myself and another.
Andrew Cohn: So when you say keep altitude, that doesn't mean I'm presuming that you're removing yourself, but rather, how would you define that keeping altitude as connected with non inflicting?
Stephen McGhee: It's a lovely question. So I think of it in terms of a ladder. Like that. When I think of a ladder of consciousness, I would put at the top rungs of the ladder, service consciousness, and maybe love would be way up there. So when I say keep altitude, I want to go up that ladder so that I have altitude on a conversation, so that I'm not inflicting. So I'm not taking my opinion, my agenda, my position, what, you know, what it's all about, dude. Like, here's how this goes. Because that causes, from my experience, separation and resistance, not only between you and me as brothers, or you, me and another, but separation from myself, which is not what I want to do in terms of leadership, not what I want to do in terms of my relationship with myself, thus my relationship with others. It's very nuanced I think at this level.
Andrew Cohn: It's nuanced. And I love the simple example. I would say metaphor, but model of that ladder of consciousness. It's sort of. So higher altitude to me is like operating at a higher level. I am imposing my values when I say that at a higher level. A guest on my podcast last year talked about a higher vibration and how you can measure expression on different levels of vibration and how loving and service is near the top of that.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, I love it. And I love that piece. Like, I believe in presence. I believe that presence pays. And here's a wacky one. Like, I believe that one day guys like us and people like your listeners will be paid for presence. You go, what do you mean by that? I go, well, think of a Sunday afternoon when you're watching professional sports. Those athletes are amazing at what they do. They're physically adept. They've worked their entire lives to fine tune or to hone a skill as a professional athlete. And they get paid, some of them, millions of dollars per game. What if presence pays? What if our presence in life transmits something to the other people we're around? So what's going on with me gets transmitted. So if I'm in a crappy mood and I'm ticked off about something and I walk into the boardroom, I can't deny that's part of the experience that I'm having or the experience that other people are having. So I want to keep my side of the street clean so that I can be present, so that I can transmit something of value.
Andrew Cohn: Okay, so when you say presence pays, does that mean let's do it because there's a payoff. I'm cynically saying, Steve, are you in it for the cash? What are we talking about here?
Stephen McGhee: It's all about the money, baby.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. So does it pay in terms of this Is the snippet that we'll use for the promo reel on the episode? It pays. In other words, there will be a benefit or is. Because then the example you gave was, in a way, presence is contagious. Like our emotions are contagious. It pays in terms of we cannot sequester the parts of us, whether it's a positive, contributing, loving presence or it's a removed, judgmental, ticked off presence. So when you say it pays, meaning it has an impact, is that what you mean?
Stephen McGhee: Absolutely. And I'm glad you pointed that out because presence pays is kind of a play on words. It's kind of an oxymoron. It's kind of like you can't. I can't be present if I'm looking to get a result. In other words, if I'm mocking it up or making it up or faking doesn't translate. It doesn't transmit. So when I say presence pays, the first point of entry is to be authentic, like to really be present and be open. Open mindset, growth, mindset, all of that would apply. But yeah, if I come in trying to get paid for my presence, I've just denied the very existence of what I'm trying to do. So it's a great point.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. So it's interesting this notion of like, how we often, in this world in which a lot of us are living, we're using time for some future payoff. It could be, for example, that somebody who. I'm riffing a little bit to the side here, but somebody who really is not enjoying their work at all. But I'll suffer through this because there's a payoff, right? I'll suffer through this for, I mean, I remember being in a conversation with somebody once and saying, you know, as you think about where you are in your career, how many weeks left do you have in your working career? And somebody said to me, I think I have 612 weeks left. And I went, holy moly. Like that. You're really looking at the end, at that point in time, we should talk. It's like this guy's already looking at the exit ramp for whatever it is 30 years out or something like that. 20 years. But we tend to, often we will use time rather than be present with what's happening. Another use of the word presence. But if I'm present with what's happening, I'm not thinking about the payoff. But at the same time, we are working people. We come into meetings with agendas. There are things we want to discuss. We're trying to create something, impact something, change something.
Stephen McGhee: Well, I mean, today's an example. So it's, you know, roughly 8:20 in the morning here in California. So I. A few minutes before we got on here, I got present. And you go, well, what does that mean? Well, it's just an application of what we're talking about. So there's the living reality of this. So I want to sit down here a few minutes before we could go live. I want to call in the light. I'm going to ask for the spirit of God to be with me, to clear me of anything that might be in the way of me being present and just close my eyes, take a few breaths. Not to be boastful, but at this stage in the game, I'm pretty good at that. You know, I'm pretty good at getting present. And my job requires it. When I'm with clients all day long, my wife requires it. You know, my life requires my presence. My driving requires my presence. So presence pays great.
Andrew Cohn: And as I hear you talk about presence that way, what I'm hearing is attention, focus, clarity, showing, as we would say back in New York, clarity.
Stephen McGhee: Clarity, yes, clarity.
Andrew Cohn: And so those are all, as I hear, different dimensions of what you're talking about in terms of being really available, tuned in, not distracted by something else.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. And maybe another principle that's just sort of emerging through our good conversations. See, this is so fun for me, Andrew, because we're appealing back layers. Like, so another layer would, I would say, and one that a lot of leaders could. And I could get better at this, but all of us could get better at listening. And so people, when I talk about listening, obviously there's content. Like, am I listening to what Andrew's saying? Am I responding to what he's saying? Content wise or contextually super important. So in my work I go the context of what we're saying is even more important. So am I listening to you in the context by which you're sharing? But maybe most importantly, am I listening to me and the inner mastery of me so that as a leader I can respond from a place that fits the situation I'm in. And it's not some past dialogue that I'm bringing into the boardroom, bringing into the team meeting, bringing into the sales pitch. So those past dialogues, past constructs can get in the way of presence. So one way to get super powerfully present is through the listening. My experience.
Andrew Cohn: No, that's a great example. And I think that bringing those things in from the past, what I'm conjuring is that's triggering, it's being reactive. I'm not responding to you, Steve. I'm responding to the person who reminds me of my ex girlfriend's next relationship or whatever the metaphor would be of what triggers us. Right. And not being present. Absolutely.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Cool.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: By the way, it's a wonderful book that I would call out here, two Inputs on Listening. One is this wonderful book called You’re not listening: What you’re missing and why it matters, for anybody listening, you could look at my website and I did a video book talk on it a couple of years ago when it came out. But it's largely about some of the scientific and psychological reasons why we don't listen very well, why we tend to have our own agendas, the speech, thought differential, and how people don't speak nearly as fast as we can think. So we tend to be thinking faster. Or I have the experience with some people that they're not listening, they're just reloading, you know, getting their next comment ready. But that's all very scientific. But then there's the other piece which I have to put into this conversation, which is the University of Santa Monica Basic Skill, which is seeing the loving essence.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: When I'm sitting with somebody, what am I really focusing on?
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Now, and I understand that we are in our roles at work, sometimes there's nothing we're not always cannot go to this place 100%. But as an absolutely available skill, how am I just sitting and listening to this person at the deepest level and what, what does he or she really need?
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Which may be different than what the agenda is, the stated agenda.
Stephen McGhee: Well, I, I think we're seeing it as a huge conflict on the planet these days. Labels are a thing. So if someone says, I made, blah, blah, blah, so the person listening might conjure up what that label means to them and then they're suddenly into your earlier point. Now we're not in alignment, we're not in agreement because prejudging with prejudice onto that person, that I don't like what that label is, or I disagree with that label, and now I'm defensive. And the truth is probably 9 out of 10 things we might have in common with that person, but we haven't created any distance. Viktor Frankl. Right. You know, his work, A man's search for meaning, the distance between stimulus and response becomes hugely important for me as a leader. To allow the presence to come in, to allow the listening to come in in such a way that I can create something powerful without the prejudice, without the prejudgment.
Andrew Cohn: And if I can recognize, if I'm self aware enough to recognize what that stimulus, how I have been stimulated by what just happened, in other words, where I might be triggered, what it conjures up me, am I reaching back to my ex? So and so I have more. One of the areas of language that caused that misunderstanding is our words and language around spirituality. People could say, I'm a Christian. In my experience, people will often wield that, you know, I'm a Christian, but that's not necessarily so. And if I have that reaction when someone says something, then I'm missing something.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, beautifully said. And again, that's a great example of it. What being a Christian means to one person A would be entirely different than what being a Christian means to person M and N. You know, we just, we gotta slow this down. If we want to find solutions and we want to find love in our conversations, in our relationships. And if a person just says, well, I don't care so much about the love in my workplace, like, why would I bring love into the workplace? I had someone say that to me the other day, who's an executive in a large organization, like, it's separate, personal and professional. I personally don't see it that way. But it made me curious for what reason this person saw it that way. And so, you know, it's interesting, then a person could just say, well, I'm not interested in love, but I'm interested in results. Then I might say, well, how does one get results? By having strong, clear, loving relationships, even at work. But it doesn't mean we disagree. It just means our language is different, our vernacular is different, our approach is different. What's worked for you is different than what's worked for me. But if we can come together in these principles and protocols that you and I talk about, we can. All ships rise with the tide. So that's what I'm looking to do. I'm not looking to be right. I'd like to be right, but I'm not looking to be right.
Andrew Cohn: If the continuation that was what I hear you is you're looking to connect. You're looking for mutual understanding. You're looking for find ways to support one another, to find ways that work. And one way that you identified and I love just. I was struck when you said this a minute ago is we've got to slow it down.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Speaking of slowing it down and speaking of the opportunity for a stimulus response equation, that could be very challenging. I know we talked about maybe you're sharing a little bit about like the past year for you.
Stephen McGhee: Oh, man, it's been a ride. It is. So rewind to late December of 2024. I'm really in this powerfully good mood. You know, it's the holiday season. We've got friends and family over for some dinners and some parties and some objective planning on the new year. So I hit the new year just thinking, you know, this is going to be the most fun, most graceful, most prosperity oriented year of my life. And we hit the morning of January 7th, wherein I go outside on our back patio and I just can't believe the winds. You know, I'm a climber, so I've been up high on some very high mountains, so I know winds and I know the speed of winds. And I'm thinking, man, that's like 50 mile per hour winds. So I. We choose to have our coffee inside that morning, but two hours later, we smell smoke. Two and a half hours later, we see smoke. Three hours later, we have a few things, our dogs in the car and we are evacuating our home in Pacific Palisades, California, 300 Bolino Drive. And I'm watching flames in my backyard. And I'm watching ashes blown by this wind enter my living room. I'm breathing in smoke and I'm having a, I don't think it was stimulus and response. It was just fear. Like I was frozen, Andrew. I couldn't think, but I knew we needed to get out as fast as possible because now there's flames. And so that was January 7th. Our home burned to the ground. And ever since then, we've just been searching for the meaning. We're not jamming toxic positivity on a very hard, challenging, awful scenario. Not just for us, Andrew, but for the entire community.
Andrew Cohn: Could you share what you mean by toxic positivity? I think I understand, but please open that up for us.
Stephen McGhee: I'm not a believer in toxic positivity. And what I mean by that is there were people, God love them, that were on January 8, calling me, emailing me, posting on social media that had nothing to do with me. You'll rebuild. You'll be stronger, you'll be better. There's silver linings in this. Well on January 8th, I really don't want to look at silver linings. I really want to be down with being present with what just happened. And people go, whoa, you're alive. You have your health, you're well. And I'm like, yeah, all I got was some smoke damage in my lungs. You're right, I'm healthy, but I'm hurting. Not just for me, but for my neighbors and the home that we had. A home doesn't get built in 24 hours with things. So the memories in there. Two quick examples, like for me in the garage, my fly rod that I'd had for 25 years fished all over the world as an avid fly fisherman. It's not the sage rod that's gone. It's the memories from that rod that's gone. Or the book on the shelf that was signed by Sir Edmund Hillary, the first one to summit Everest, along with his partner, Tinsey Norgay, signed the book in my garage gone forever. So this year started off with that, and now here we are sitting later in 2025, and, yeah, now I see the silver linings. Now I get the advancement of learning from it. Another great principle is how do I use everything that happens in my life for my advancement? So toxic positivity is denying through spiritual bypass what happened. Healthy, positive focus is taking what happened for my learning, growth and advancement, which comes with proper process. Does that make sense?
Andrew Cohn: No, it makes perfect sense. And what I'm hearing, just to see if there's layers on this, is that being present the day after means grieving. It doesn't mean trying to find a silver lining. If anything, that's not being present, that's rushing ahead of the present. And I like, perhaps if I'm doing that, perhaps if I'm doing that, I'm so uncomfortable with this grieving. I've got to try to put a positive spin on it. Oh, it'll be totally fine, whatever it is. And. And I've been through a little bit of hurtful stuff in this year as well. And it's like, no, there's a time for that. And it's almost as if, like, when you talk about presence and there's a time for that just seemed to go together very well for me, is recognizing being present is like, no, there's a time for this. And sometimes being present is to recognize all of this and just call it what it really is and not jump ahead to the spin that I might want to put on it, which could very well be because of my own discomfort with the present.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so if a person, and I have at times in my life done this with challenges I've had or hurts or betrayals or things that just really were painful, if I stuff that and I don't process it with my own style and unique way of grieving, that is assuredly going to come back to me at some point in my life. So that it hasn't been cleared yet. So I was mindful and the people around me were mindful of how do we use this for advancement, how do we clear it properly, how do we talk about it? How do we be with this war zone that we just were a part of? So we went back a number of times. We sifted through ashes. We found a few little cool things that had melted to the core. And it was just like there were times we were giddy, like, we would find a little. Like, Veronica found a little piece of jewelry where the bedroom was. And it was just like at the same time we were grieving, we could kind of celebrate these little victories along the way and look at what's in this for us. But that came later. So it's been quite a year, Andrew, as you know.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And as I hear you talk about, even, like celebrating these little victories so that some point later you're going back. I was going to ask you what's it like to go back to a scene like that, but let's hold off on that for a second. But at the time you did that, you were able to celebrate these little victories, and that's not toxic positivity. That's appreciation in the presence for what you were experiencing. That's what I'm hearing.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, exactly. Well said.
Andrew Cohn: Exactly. You probably couldn't have done that within a week.
Stephen McGhee: Of course not. I couldn't have. I mean, maybe the illumined masters could get there in a week, but I'm not one of those. I have a deep respect for process. So there was that. And one example of that was, gosh, it must have been. Starts in January. This is probably early April. We're in the Pacific Palisades. And I just get. And this is part of what I live by, and I think, Andrew, you do too. This inner attunement to listening. So I'm listening to myself. We're in the car together, Veronica and I. We're going to head north on Pacific coast highway. And I go, you know, I want to go up to the house. One of our favorite things was to watch the sunset at the end of the day on our front porch because we had this beautiful view of the ocean, and we could see the sun come down and we could watch the glitters of orange off the ocean. And it was just like beautiful. Almost every night we did that. So I'm like, honey, let's go up to the house. Well, of course, the front porch isn't there, but where the house was was there. And the sun is still there and the ocean is still there. So we go up there. And my experience of my experience was to watch the sunset. I had this release not from the pain and the suffering of the fire, but from the gratitude and the joy that I had on the many, many days, evenings I'd watched the sunset. And I got to do it one more time. It was like this exclamation point of an experience to watch the sunset from the burned rubble of that front porch. Now I can laugh about it. Now I can be with it in grace and gratitude, if that makes any sense.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I mean, the notion of watching a beautiful sunset from the ashes is a beautiful, beautiful image. So if I could ask you. I'm just curious. You're driving up to the house on that day because some part of you says, I want to go up to the house. Did you expect that you would have the experience that you did, just stepping onto the property, facing the sun as you've done so many times from that space? I'm curious to know what that was like.
Stephen McGhee: It was amazing. And no, I didn't know that I was going to have that experience. I'm not smart enough to know that–what I'm smart enough to do is listen to what I'm directed to do. And for me, that language is I'm listening to the spirit. I'm listening to something that's higher than me or my mood or my emotion of the day. So I'm hearing that and I'm just following that directive. And so following that directive, when I do that, which I do quite often the wiser I get, the more I do it, it's almost assuredly going to be an experience that's for me. So when I deny that, I don't know what happens, but I know it's not the same experience.
Andrew Cohn: And when you say for you, meaning something that will contribute to your growth or something that will be a positive experience or what do you contribute to my growth?
Stephen McGhee: Contribute to my growth because sometimes those are not positive experiences, you know, based on my ego, based on what I want. Well, I didn't want to have that experience, but I had it. Now I look back on my life and I go, wow. Even the hardest ones defined me, grew inner strength, helped me to be more aligned with my soul and my spirit. And so good, bad, wrong and different, I've learned to follow and listen and accept what's there for me, even when it's, gosh, I wouldn't have chosen that one.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And what I'm hearing too is that acceptance feels different at different times. Acceptance is not putting a positive spin on something. It'd be if this is the time to grieve, it's the time to grieve and I accept that.
Stephen McGhee: Amen.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And I'm also what I'm hearing in your view, and I really appreciate this, the word that's jumping to mind for me is you're expressing with a certain level of maturity. It's the long game here. Right, I can't measure the fulfillment in my life by the week or by the hour. There's going to be ups and downs. Right. And to look at the unfolding and the just the evolution and the growth as a long term game, that's how I see it and how you describe it.
Stephen McGhee: I see it the same way. And I would again bring the word forward. Wisdom, like wisdom for me has been to move into acceptance of what's happening. Rather than label what's happening as this is good, this is bad, this is good for me, not good for me. Whatever the titles are that I would label an experience as I've learned to just go, we'll see, we'll see what happens. Where do we end up? Right now we're living in Topanga Canyon, in nature, in a beautiful home, and we've had a lot of grace since January of 2025. We were in Santa Barbara, where we got to live on the beach for seven months while we were resetting. So there's been. While there's been difficulty, challenges, tragedy, there's also been great learning, great growth, great acceptance, great cooperation with what's happening. I would say I'm a more compassionate, humble person than I was a year ago. More grateful, too.
Andrew Cohn: Grateful for what?
Stephen McGhee: Just grateful for, like, just even in this moment, like, I. There's another level of gratitude for me. So we're in this moment here right now. So I'm more grateful for more moments than I've ever been in my life. What's coming, I don't know. And I know, for example, you've had some things this year that were really hard that you didn't necessarily see coming. And my experience when we talked last was you were feeling it, but you were also accepting it. You were also with it, with it for you. And I love that about you. And that. That experience of being with you, it feels like you and I can go even deeper in a conversation because we've shared those vulnerabilities, if that makes any sense. Like, none of us are exempt, right, Andrew, we're all gonna. Life is gonna life all of us, whether it's financially, relationally, health wise, lose our home, whatever. We're all gonna get lifed.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Good verb usage. I like that.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew Cohn: And as I hear you talk about gratitude also, it's almost as if even in hearing your experience and learning from your experience, to the extent that I can, I feel a little bit woken up to appreciate what's happening right now.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Well, because in a New York minute or in a Pacific Palisades minute, things can change. Right. And to be grateful for what's happening right now. Absolutely.
Stephen McGhee: Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. I feel like perhaps this is a little bit of a break, certainly, until the next time we talk, which I hope isn't too long from now. If people want to learn more about your work, where can they look?
Stephen McGhee: They can go online, but my website is www.McGhee, which is McGhee. The word leadership. McGheeleadership.com. they can go there.
Andrew Cohn: Okay. Terrific. Anything else that I haven't asked you that maybe I could have that would be useful for this conversation?
Stephen McGhee: You know, again, I just got to trust what just came in the second you asked that question. It's like, I just want to say to anybody that's out there listening that I'm encouraged by humanity at a time when a lot of people are not. And so I just invite you, if you're struggling or if you're going through some challenges, to just be present with what's happening and know that this too shall pass. And to do your best to look at whatever's going on, whatever it is, to use it for your advancement, for your learning and your growth. And it may not seem in this moment like that will ever happen, like this will never pass. This is going to be my life forevermore. I'm going to deal with this forever, and I'm never going to be happy again. Not true. Be patient, accept, cooperate with what is, and keep your eyes focused on the prize, which is being present and being mindful of what you're learning. Those are some words that I wish someone would have said to me a few times.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, me too. Amen to that. Well, thank you and so let's get these words out there. Thank you for continuing to do what you do in the world and certainly look forward to continuing our conversation. Thank you so much for this time.
Stephen McGhee: My pleasure, Andrew. Thank you.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you for listening to Spirituality in Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, please subscribe to the show. Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. You can go to the site spiritualityinleadership.com or your preferred podcast platform to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of yourself.