When Leadership Becomes Service: A Life Shaped by Faith and Integrity, with James McPherson
In this episode of Spirituality in Leadership, host Andrew Cohn sits down with mentor, attorney, consultant, and longtime leadership practitioner James McPherson for a deeply grounded conversation on servant leadership, conviction, and living one’s faith with integrity in the workplace.
James reflects on a lifetime of leadership across diverse environments, including the U.S. Air Force, Fortune 500 companies, law firms, higher education, healthcare systems, and federal government service, and shares how his Christian faith has consistently shaped how he leads rather than what he preaches. From a pivotal spiritual awakening as a college freshman in the early 1970s to his belief in servant leadership long before it became a management framework, James describes leadership as an expression of love, stewardship, humility, and responsibility for others’ growth.
Throughout the conversation, James and Andrew explore what it means to lead without evangelizing, to stay rooted in values without imposing them, and to model spirituality through presence, patience, self-control, and genuine care for people. James shares vivid stories, from turning down career-advancing opportunities that conflicted with his values, to empowering frontline employees, to designing and teaching servant leadership programs that organically inspired others.
This episode is a powerful reminder that spirituality in leadership is not about labels or persuasion. It is about how we show up, how we treat people, and how deeply we commit to helping others flourish.
Key Takeaways
Servant Leadership as a Way of Life: James embraced servant leadership through faith before it became a formal leadership concept.
Conviction Over Career Advancement: Choosing values over promotion can open unexpected and meaningful paths.
Faith Lived, Not Preached: Spiritual leadership is expressed through behavior, humility, and care, not evangelizing.
Leadership Begins with Awareness: Knowing what drives us and what triggers us is essential for effective leadership.
Humility Attracts, Ego Repels: People are drawn to leaders who put others first and remain grounded.
Stewardship and Integrity Matter: Leaders are responsible for people, resources, and long-term impact.
Empowerment Creates Excellence: Trusting and developing people leads to extraordinary performance.
Inclusion Through Example: Making space for spirituality at work begins by modeling respect and humanity.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Opening reflections and introduction
[01:24] Introducing James McPherson and his leadership background
[05:58] Spirituality as the foundation of leadership
[09:20] Love for people as a leadership throughline
[10:53] A spiritual awakening and choosing a life of service
[12:34] Learning servant leadership from Scripture
[15:39] Values-based decisions in the U.S. Air Force
[19:36] Choosing conviction over career trajectory
[22:46] Faith, humility, and leadership in secular environments
[26:36] Integrity, stewardship, and developing people
[28:18] Empowerment and leadership in practice
[31:37] Navigating faith in diverse workplaces
[36:41] Teaching servant leadership and its ripple effects
[41:30] Making spirituality easier to live at work
[45:06] Closing reflections and invitation
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
James McPherson
Andrew Cohn
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Transcript
James McPherson: There is common denominator in all those roles and responsibilities. That would be my love for people and to see them flourish and achieve potential.
Andrew Cohn: How has spirituality been at the center of your leadership along the way?
James McPherson: So in 1972 I made a decision that I was going to walk as Jesus walked, as he gave me the ability by the Holy Spirit to do so. That was the most cataclysmic event in my entire life and that began to inform my leadership.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality and Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
In this episode of the Spirituality and Leadership podcast, I am really pleased to interview James McPherson. James is a fascinating man from a very different time and place than myself, which is one of the reasons I really enjoy speaking with him. He is an attorney business leader. He's worked in a variety of leadership positions including governments, higher education, big corporate, specifically Xerox law firms as well as in the US Air Force. He tells a bit about his story and how his spirituality has always informed his leadership. He has very strong Christian beliefs and what I would say about that for me is that he has the unusual combination in my experience of being both extremely devout as a Christian but also very inviting, very inspirational, not at all evangelical. He talks about when he was a college freshman and had a spiritual awakening in response to his personal searching, why Am I Here? He went to a family church with a relative and after a number of months he fell in love with scripture, particularly as he talks about it, some of the leaders in the Bible, the Old and New Testament, and he said it was personally the biggest event in his life to decide to follow Jesus. He talks about servant leadership deeply. We talked about it as a focus of our conversation together. He said he believed in servant leadership before he even knew what it was. And he talks about, for example, how he loves the evidence of servant leadership in the Bible. So he just brings things back to his faith in a very curious and devout way. He told the story of when at one point he was working with Air Force fighter pilots and recognized that he needed to get to know these pilots and he made a decision to not get to know them as well, because to get to know them would mean spending more time in the officers club. And he didn't want to be socializing in that environment where there was a lot of alcohol being served. And so he talked about that as an example of not willing to go against his values, even at the time the age of 23.
So that was a values based choice that he made, which I thought was a very interesting story to tell. He talks about stewardship as a critical attribute to servant leadership. Being full of integrity, wanting to do what's right. He talks about his point of view around humility and patience. As he said, it's very important not to be evangelizing, but rather demonstrating love for everyone, including, he said, his personal practice of extending kindness towards people who don't like him. And near the end of the conversation, he asks both of us, how can we make it easier for people to bring the conviction of their faith and into their leadership into the workplace? And he answers it by encouraging leaders to think about the core elements of servant leadership, including self awareness, humility, and getting to know your team, getting to know your people personally. So I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did. Here's my interview with James McPherson.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast. I'm so happy to have with me my friend and mentor, James McPherson. James is a lawyer, a consultant, a teacher, a mentor to many, and just a very interesting man with a very interesting copious background and just somebody who has a lot to teach. And I'm so grateful that I was able to pin you down for these low, however many minutes we have together and just see where this conversation goes. Because my observation and experience with you is that you have a lot to say about leadership and you have a lot to say about spirituality, and I look forward to your intersection of these two topics. So welcome.
James McPherson: It's a pleasure to be with you today.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. If I were to look over your resume, I'd say, okay, well, this is a lawyer, a consultant, a leadership consultant and teacher, a community builder, mentor and otherwise. And your work experience from IBM to Duke too. Just as I reviewed some of what you shared with me about your background and the places that you've worked and some of the things that you've done, it's almost like for me, it would be unfair to highlight certain things other than to say, I'm grateful that the legal profession had you and I'm grateful for you that you left. And I say the same about myself. But I know that that was just One small stop on your long journey. So welcome, James. And what might you say about how you would introduce yourself at least at this stage in your career and in your life?
James McPherson: You appropriately indicated a jumping off point when you said, I'm an intersection of spirituality and leadership. Where I have led, it has been because of my spirituality. My spirituality forms the foundation for my leadership. We'll talk more about that later on. And I've been fortunate to have had numerous opportunities outside of the law and business. I have served clients in 56 different countries. I have visited 21 countries. And I have spent many days in the motherland, the continent of Africa, where when I was in Kenya, they adopted me as a Maasai warrior because of my high cheekbones, my thin physique and my height of 6 foot 3. So that's a part of me that I did not know that was going to happen. It only occurred because of a blue eyed soul brother. A Caucasian in Raleigh, North Carolina had observed me in certain Christian capacities and said, how would you like to go to Africa with me? I never thought about it. I was in my late 40s, early 50s. And I said, absolutely, Jim. That was just the beginning. Where we started out in Zimbabwe, one of the poorest countries in Africa. It's because of Dr. James Seymour that I first went to Africa. And I think that is an example of how my work has been woven together outside of my race. But I've been the first black in many instances, having grown up in the south in the 50s during desegregation and obviously before that segregation. I was a product of desegregation after the Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954, I had already been born for one year. So when I was in the 10th grade, I was forced to go to a formerly all white school. And I'll leave this one point, then we'll move on. At one point in that formerly all white school, I was the only black basketball player on the team for one semester. Andrew. I was the worst player. So who said that all black guys can jump? I could not. I yield to you, counselor.
Andrew Cohn: Okay, so you're one year old and the Supreme Court said, okay, now we gotta change it. That's it. Wow. Well, you have worked in different environments, certainly from the military to corporate America. And I mean, it doesn't get much more corporate America traditionally than IBM to academia and other settings, medicine. And just to hear about your journey is to see a wandering path that seems like it has a bunch of turns on it and yet it's one big natural Totally understandable. Lovely flow. Would you describe it that way or has your journey been more of a jaggedy peak thing from your experience?
James McPherson: From my experience there is a common denominator in all those roles and responsibilities. That would be my love for people and to see them flourish and achieve potential. Whether I was an Air Force officer directing the work activities of young soldiers or my last official role, a member of the C Executive Service in the federal government in Washington D.C. where I had a portfolio of $1.2 billion in sales. In all those instances, I was responsible for creating a team around a common vision to then put plans in place to implement those visions and associated goals. I did not realize when I was born in poverty in 1953 that I would be the first college graduate in my family, much less the only lawyer in my family. Here we are 70 years later. There's only one lawyer in the McPherson family. Sure. There were some intentional career moves and there were some unintentional ones. We may cross those paths later on in the conversation.
Andrew Cohn: Well, I need to ask you, and I don't see a point in waiting because you teed it up so beautifully. How has spirituality been at the center of your leadership along the way?
James McPherson: Fantastic. When I was a freshman in college I had a spiritual awakening. Had been asking that age old question, why am I here? What am I supposed to do back in the early 70s and lo and behold I went to my family church. My first cousin invited me at the same time I was asking those kinds of questions. After about eight months I realized that the Bible consisting of the Old Testament primarily looking at the life of Jews and the New Testament looking at the lives of Jews and Gentiles that I'm supposed to be engrafted with the Jews and the Gentiles. So I just fell in love with the Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament where we looked at people, primarily leaders. I didn't understand it then Andrew that I was interested in Moses, David, Isaiah, Joseph, and then in the New Testament, Jesus, Paul, John, James and Peter. I just fell in love with what I was reading. So I made a personal decision in 1972 that I'm going to follow this Jewish guy from Jerusalem for the rest of my life. And now I'm in my 51st year and I'm not looking back. Once I began to understand the Scriptures, not as a lawyer then, but as I look back, I really love the evidence for the proof claims that Moses and Jesus were making. For example, Jesus said I did not come to be served, but to serve and to give My life, a ransom for many. That just blew me away because I grew up in the south thinking, I need to make a lot of money, I need to be on top, I need to be in charge. And then lo and behold, my role model is saying, if you want to become great, become a servant. And I wanted to live out those truth claims. So in 1972, I made a decision that I was going to walk as Jesus walked, as he gave me the ability by the Holy Spirit to do so. That was the most cataclysmic event in my entire life. And that began to inform my leadership. You and I talked earlier about. I believed in servant leadership before I knew what it was because of some major statements that Jesus made in the Bible because he himself said at one point, I don't want you to lead like the leaders in Jerusalem because they like to lord it over you. Having grown up with a slave mentality, I'm thinking slave owner driving the slaves to get things done. Then Jesus said, those officials flaunt their authority over those under them. Then he made this statement that struck me, but among you, it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must become your servant. So I began to listen to him and other leaders in the Bible in the early 70s, and it became a part of who I was and how I live and led concurrently. I joined a fraternity, the oldest African American fraternity, founded in 1906 at an Ivy League school in Cornell, New York. And its motto was, first of all, servants of all. I became a member of Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity the same year I became a member of of the church. The commonality was servanthood. So I had two axes on which to drive my life around the servant. And as I look back, I can understand now what was happening in 1972 that I did not fully appreciate back then.
Andrew Cohn: How many of us fully appreciate epiphanies we may have when we're in our early 20s, et cetera, but beautiful. And so because of some of the stops you've made along the way and the diversity of those stops, the different environments, the way leadership works in different places, academia, corporate America, US Air Force, government administration, opm, et cetera. This question is so big, I feel like I should break it down. But I want to ask it to you in a big way and have you pick it up wherever you like. But how have those environments welcomed you and your strong, clear sense of belief and servant leadership? Slash, how have you brought that sense of servant leadership into those environments and obviously been able to, but been true to Yourself and carried who you were with you in all those different places. What can you share about that?
James McPherson: The first thought in response to your answer took place when I was a young Air Force officer. This was between the years of 1975 and 1979. I recognize that in order to get promoted rapidly in an environment with pilots, I work primarily with fighter pilots. F4 pilots, F15 pilots, F16 pilots. I was their controller on the ground. I had a headset and a computer type device that I would look at, find them on the scope and tell them where they needed to go. I often said I told fighter pilots where to go, how fast and how high to go, and they had to listen to me. However, when I was back on the base, I recognized I needed to go to the Officers Club and hobnob with these pilots, get to know them so they can get to know me in order for them to recommend me for certain assignments and promotions. I realized that an environment where there was a lot of alcohol being served was not conducive to me, did not serve my values. So I made an incision, Andrew, not to frequent the Officers Club. I would go periodically for lunch or dinner, but not to hobnob in order to be seen so that my career could take off. It did not hurt me at all. I must say that before I left, they had already said, james, you will become a captain at the four year point. You have been selected to go to the first level of in person leadership school called the Squadron Officer Leadership School. I turned both of those down because I had projected that in order for me to rapidly ascend, I had to potentially go against my value system and I was not willing to do that. So that was the first major decision I made as a 23 year old not to engage in that kind of environment so that I could be successful.
Andrew Cohn: And what was that like for you at 23? Was it a tough decision? I mean, that's a big character decision to make at 23.
James McPherson: It really was. Fortunately, before I went to the military, I had time to spend in on the college campus in ROTC Reserves Officer Training Corps, where I was fortunate enough to be selected as the commander of that unit in my last semester. I had a wonderful lieutenant colonel who was responsible for training us. So he gave us some insights in terms of what it would take in order to excel. He himself was a pilot, so I had a chance to understand that mentality. So I began in my last year of college to think through, What kind of career do you really want? I can tell you, Andrew, I was gung ho. I wanted to be at least a colonel and a potential one star general. I had that drive in me because I remember Jesus said, if you want to become great, become a servant. So I thought, wow, I can become great if I just serve in a way that would lead me to be recognized. But when I came against that fork in the road, I had to decide, is it your career or is it your convictions? Oh, I didn't realize that. CC A little alliteration right there. That's pretty good, James, I'm sorry, that was not planned, as you all can tell, audience.. Okay. I love having fun when I'm engaging with great people like Andrew Cohn. So I made a decision after some foreknowledge while in college that I had to decide, are you going to live by your convictions or live by a potential trajectory in your career as a commissioned officer?
Andrew Cohn: And so the choice was made which limited one path and did it open doors to another?
James McPherson: It did. While I was in Iceland, my second tour of duty in the Air Force, I had a lot of time to think about whether I'm going to make it a career or do something else. So it was in 1977-78, having been in there for about two to three years, that I decided I was going to leave the Air Force. Because I had examined the evidence, even though I didn't use that language back in 1977-78, that the path that I was on would be too rocky. I would not be able to have smooth sailing to the desired destination. So I began to think through what do you want to do next? And undergraduate school. I was fortunate enough to have been selected to attend Ohio State University for a weekend to consider an MBA program. Because I decided to go to the Air Force, I did not pursue that opportunity, but the seed was planted. MBA. While I didn't go to Ohio State, I went to another Big Ten school north of Ohio in Wisconsin, the University of Wisconsin, where I was able to win a fellowship with a stipend. To go to the University of Wisconsin took me a year and a half because I went to summer school. Because I had a business degree already, I was able to finish that MBA program in three semesters as opposed to four. So I recognized that there was a different path in order to pursue this greatness that I had instilled in my mindset. I thought I would do it in business.
Andrew Cohn: And you did. I mean, I want to be careful here because if we take it one small step at a Time we're going to have tomes of recordings here. So what the challenge here is to do some level of prioritizing on the fly and get to where we are. But you did take it to business both in IBM and then you were later with again at Duke University, which is where I first met you when you were there some years later and then in Washington D.C. and otherwise, I suppose what maybe I'm most curious about. There's so much that I'm curious about. But what I'm most curious about is I typically serve people, men and women in the business world, in the business space, sometimes in academia as well and some other settings. But in the world of business, which can often be very well about as secular can get, how have you been able to hold true, which you clearly have and do hold true to, to who you are, whom you serve, how you are? I'm sure that from my observation over the years I haven't taken as many breaths as you have on the planet. But over the years even the topic of religion or spirituality in business is either more or less acceptable. That just what gets discussed at work has changed an awful lot in my 35 year career. And how have you been able to walk your particular path, which may be informed by some other lovely paths and powerful paths in this very secular space. How have you bridged that intersection of religion, spirituality and business? I know again, another huge question. Forgive me, but you'll take it wherever you take it.
James McPherson: Fantastic. One of the underpinnings of my Christianity is to prefer others over yourself and do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to. So I had to operationalize those two mindsets so that whether I'm working for a Fortune 500 company in Armark, New York IBM or a Fortune 500 company in Raleigh, North Carolina, Carolina Power and Light Company or if I'm working for the eighth largest law firm in the state of Michigan in 1985-1988 are finally in the federal government three levels from the President of the United States. I had to come to each of those opportunities with the true James McPherson. Just as I said about the Air Force, I had decided how I'm going to show up. Similarly, when I went to those ventures, I had already decided that I'm not going to compromise, but I'm not going to focus on myself. I've learned, Andrew, if I focus on people, focus on what's important to them to help them achieve their vision, mission, goals and objectives, it'll be much easier for them to accept me for who I AM at no time did I say you must follow most, you follow Jesus in order for me to invest in you. That was not my approach at all. Over time, if people would ask me, James, what drives you? You seem to be so heaven Keel and that you don't fly off the hand and get upset as some of your colleagues do. And I would respond that I have been intentional in the way that I live my life. And one of my character traits for being patience, kindness and most importantly, self control. Andrew I've developed these character traits over time in my closet, in my office, at home, at church, in smaller groups. So that when I was involved in secular work, it was much easier for me to demonstrate my true values regardless of the nature of the work. Whether I'm practicing law as the first black male in an all white law firm in 1985 in Detroit, Michigan.
Andrew Cohn: Wow.
James McPherson: Or being responsible for coaching one of the top 10 IBM executives on his behavior on a weekly call with a hundred executives from around the globe, there was one humorous statement. I was on a call with this IBM executive one Thursday morning and he made a statement on the phone that I need to be careful what I say because my coach is on the line. He may report back to the CEO what I'm saying. So it took what opportunities with him to develop that kind of relationship where he could be that vulnerable and transparent with executives. I was not an executive. I was an organization leadership consultant responsible to him and his leadership team. So over time when people recognize that you are genuine, that you are committed, number one, to the organization stewardship, which is one of the key attributes of servant leadership and committed to developing people, another critical attribute. And most importantly that you are full of integrity, you want to do what's right for, for the organization. So it's been very important for me to make sure that my personal values will mirror those of the organization. Obviously it's not going to be a one to one match, but when IBM talked about integrity and speed and helping leaders grow and develop, I can identify with that. So it's easier for me to embrace what the organization was trying to accomplish.
Andrew Cohn: So the way that you learned about and came to embody servant leadership, and I disagree, I think you did know about servant leadership. It was just before that book was written and you knew about it because Jesus knew about it. So whether that book was written or not was written. But the fact that you can embody that represent that. I'm also hearing you talk about humility and putting others first, disarm, being disarming in these conversations. There's nothing in this I could be wrong with this, but I'm here and there is nothing patronizing or evangelizing. I'm not here to convince you of anything. And yet you could recognize, and this is one of the hypotheses of this podcast, is that these core dimensions of us as people, as we develop them in particular and pay attention to them and nurture them as you have, these are, I would submit, spiritual dimensions. And people are drawn to those dimensions, at least at certain times, in certain ways. Usually I'm more drawn to them when I'm a little bit more quiet and paying attention and recognizing what's important. But then they come to you and they ask, how do you do that? What is this superpower, my term, not yours, that you could stay calm in these circumstances? I wonder if you could speak to that. What would you say? That the dimensions of you, that calmness, that steadiness, that non reactivity, that state of, again, my word here, but I think it fits that state of loving that's so core. And I wonder how you can talk about how that has served you in these different environments. Maybe there's a story to tell.
James McPherson: Numerous stories. I'll start with one at the Fortune 500 company based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Having served as a lawyer and as an HR leader in this company, my primary client, the responsible executive for customer operating services, made an offer to me one day in his office while we were talking about business. As we were concluding the conversation, he said, james, have you considered working as a district manager, a line manager job? And I said, I thought about it and then I was getting ready to walk out. He rushed to the elevator. James, wait a minute. Would you be willing to leave Raleigh and go to a town called Sanford, about 40 miles south of Raleigh? I said, absolutely. A few months later, I was selected to be a district manager for the town of Samford and surrounding areas. When I moved to that job, there was a vacancy at the first line level called a customer service supervisor. Through my listening tour, I recognized that we had some smart, experienced, first line frontline workers who met with the public in the district offices where they went in to pay their electric bill in the old days back in the 90s. And I concluded, we don't need that supervisory job. I want to empower all women at that time, those women to get out of their comfort zone, to make some decisions on the spot instead of relying on a customer service supervisor. It was my desire to see them grow and develop not only in the office, but in the community. Consequently, they performed extraordinarily well. We had no customer complaints. I was available if they needed me. And I was very proud when that team of women were selected for the highest award that the company offered for employees. They were a self empowered team. They reached their financial goals, their customer service goals, and their employee engagement goals. So that was an example where I showed humility, my commitment to developing people and empowering them to expand beyond their ordinary scope. And near the end of my tour there, two of the young ladies said, one was in Asheboro, about 60 miles away from Sanford. Said, have you ever thought about running for the president of the United States? This was before Obama. All right. And I said, no, I have not. They said, if you do, you have two strong campaign workers, Mr. McPherson. So I love to tell that story, that those two young ladies had recognized that I cared for them as people first. I gave them opportunities to grow and develop, and then they returned the love to me. That was not my intent at all. So I believe in the principle you reap what you sow. If you sow well, you will reap well. If you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. That's another one of those mindsets that I keep in the back of my cranial cavity. Brother King. Beautiful.
Andrew Cohn: So I'm curious to know because you have a very strong sense of faith, for sure, a sense of faith doesn't even do it. A strong faith basis foundation. And how do you navigate spaces where that may be less friendly to discuss or it could be even perhaps, I don't want to say used against you. I hope that's not the case. But it's not thought of in a complementary way. Perhaps if you carry a strong faith in certain environments, certainly some business and work environments, and particularly you've worked across different cultures or even regions in this country. If you were to stay within the US Treat these things differently, have different reactions, and it's clear that you've stayed true. You know who you are, you love who you are, and you're going to be who you are, which is wonderful. But how have you navigated some of these environments to continue to lead in the way you're speaking about, even though conversations perhaps about your faith may not necessarily be as welcome.
James McPherson: I've been fortunate, Andrew. I've never had any leader or peer or direct report to say, you must not act that way according to your Christian beliefs in this workplace. At no time has someone said, you are not welcomed here because of your convictions. I often think about that was. I been shielded supernaturally from those kinds of attacks. I just don't know. I can tell you when I was at that company in Raleigh, the CEO wanted to launch a new diversity initiative and he selected me to lead that effort. Where we focus on various dimensions of diversity. It was race, gender, age and years of service. But it was not religion. You can imagine in the south in the late, earliest and early 90s, there was no anti religion, anti Christianity in the South. For an example, that same senior leader who asked me to become a district manager had his leadership meetings in his office. And I heard in the late 80s they will start those leadership meetings off with a prayer and Bible study. So I spent more time there in that company than any other company 12 years. So it was very friendly toward Christianity, Judaism and Catholicism. Those were the three primary religions in our area at that time. So I think it's primary because I was intentional about not evangelizing. Instead, I wanted to demonstrate love not only for other Christians, but even for my enemies. So I had recognized Andrew, some folks who were against me without them telling me, you can't intuit and discern. So I would make a practice of showing kindness, gentleness and goodness toward them. I'm thinking of a story. It happened inside of a local church. I was the first black elder in this formerly all white church in leadership. So they had, I think about 12 elders, all were white until I was selected. When I went to the leadership meeting, the elders’ meeting, I was always taking my Bible with me because it's a church elders meeting. I later found out that one of those elders told me, James, I was wondering who do you think you are? You're bringing a Bible to a business meeting of the church. It helped me immensely for him, number one, to be that vulnerable to share that with me after he left the council. And number two, I didn't realize that it would be so strange to do that. So just think in that instance, were you expected to bring your Bible? And you do and it may be held against you by one person. I never took my Bible and put it on the desk at work, but I had it in my drawer. And I remember one time at a healthcare system here in Charlotte, North Carolina, one of our employees had her Bible on her desk. So that gave me an opportunity to engage her in dialogue around what does that mean to you? I too believe in the Bible. We have had a conversation. So when the door opens in order to engage in a spiritual conversation, I will do it on friendly grounds, not on enemy grounds. So fortunately I have not had any instances where people have confronted me directly with how I lived out my Christian principles and practices in the workplace.
Andrew Cohn: And I suspect that so. Because as you're describing it, it's about the how. It's about modeling. It's not about labeling. If we could talk about it that way. It's not about labeling. It's not about winning a prize, and it is about supporting others. And that's, you know, from early on, right, From Alpha Phi Alpha. That's it. That seed was planted, too.
James McPherson: That's right. I can tell you this. At that last healthcare company, my boss, executive vice president of human resources, had delivered a course on servant leadership. When she recognized that I was exemplifying those behaviors, she said, James,, I want you to take over this course. I looked at it and said, I will deliver a course on servant leadership, but give me the authority to develop the content. And she did, and I did. So I designed, developed, and delivered a course on servant leadership at Carolina's Healthcare System, one of the largest healthcare systems in the United States. When I delivered that course in an open enrollment, one of the leaders said, James, I want you to deliver a course like this to my North Carolina association. So again, it's an example of how I approach the topic, that people would be so motivated, they wanted to spread that kind of content and role modeling with their peers from other healthcare systems across the United States. So I was just looking, in preparation for this podcast, that I delivered that course nine years ago in Myrtle Beach, North Carolina. So at least I had a chance to go to the beach during the fall to do something that I was very passionate about and spend an extra day or two there. Again, some of the benefits of doing what you believe is right. I didn't deliver that course to that particular man, thinking that someone may recognize my contribution, invite me to deliver a similar course at one of the favorite beaches in South Carolina.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful, no? But a great example of attraction, not promotion. A great example of giving. And then I think I saw a quotation recently. It's interesting this is occurring to me, the way it was shared with me. It was described as a Sufi saying. I don't know who said what, but a Sufi saying. And it said, if we give all our nothingness to God, he gives us everything. There's a lot in there, and I don't even know how to tee that up on a podcast like this. But the point is simply that you are acting from your foundational faith core, from a place of service, and recognizing what comes back not giving so that it comes back, but that it does. And you beautifully stayed the course. I feel like I could spend another at least three months, months listening to you and stories and otherwise. And there's just so much to tell.
James McPherson: Well, thank you. I hear the voice of Jesus saying, if you're going to come after me, deny yourself. That's that nothingness you make yourself of no report. Pick up my cross, he said, and then follow me. He told the 12 disciples, you will become fishers of men. That means that we're going to invest in our lives, in the lives of others. At the same time, there is another principle where he said, give and it shall be given unto you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men given to you in the same measure that you've given unto them. So it's a two sided coin. When you come to him, you come broken. Nothing to offer because he's paid it all for you. And then he says, once you give your life away, I will give you a new life so that you can give that away. So my life is not my own. I've been purchased with a price. So that has been another mindset and associated practice, just giving myself away to other people. And I was thinking earlier, in preparation for this call, even though I'm not an ordained minister, I had ministers in Raleigh to come to me for, as you mentioned, mentorship, leadership, guidance and counsel to help them frame their calling in life so that they then could be the very best minister that they could be.
Andrew Cohn: And I think they chose wisely and I hope and would expect that they would pay it forward similarly to the next generation of the people coming up behind that. And I'm grateful to you. I haven't worked with you, but I'm working with you now. And I express gratitude on behalf of all those people you've served along the way for the gifts that you've given them. And I appreciate the way you carry your faith so strongly without the need to evangelize or otherwise. It drives you, it serves you, you serve others. It's a beautiful flow. And it's sort of like, well, of course, why can't it always be this simple, graceful.
James McPherson: As we prepare to close, I'm just trying to see what we can unearth around how can we make it easier for people in the workplace to be true to their spirituality while they are leading? And I will encourage them to think of some of the major attributes of servant leadership. The number one is awareness. If one does not have a full appreciation for what I used to say in the healthcare industry what makes you tick and what ticks you off. It would be hard to be successful in your environment. And number two would be humility. Don't think more highly of yourself than you ought to. People can quickly recognize proud, bombastic people. People will shy away from you. That will repel them. If that's your purpose for work, well, go for it. But if you're there to attract people to help them be successful, the organization to be successful, and then they will help you be successful. Deploy humility. And then finally, as leaders, we're supposed to help others to grow and develop. Get to know your direct reports. When I went to Washington to be a member of the senior executive Service, that's another story. When I first was selected for that job, people said, who did you know? How did you become a senior executive? And you've never worked in the federal government. You must know someone. I said, I know someone who owns the entire earth. He gave it to me. So that was an example where I had a legitimate reason to be truthful. Because it was a godsend for me to be able to get that kind of job in Washington. One of the first things that I did which was not earth shattering is to have a one on one conversation with all the 20 people in my portfolio. And a couple ladies said I had never been to this senior executive's office before. It was just mind boggling to me to think that it was not a huge, it was a corner office, but it wasn't him. But they were not allowed to have those kinds of relationship with the senior executive. So that was one of the first decisions that I made. And then I had quarterly follow up with everybody. I took the time to learn what ticked them off and how I could serve them to become better public servants for the taxpayers of the United States of America. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Just by simply being inclusive and welcoming and just looking for a door to open. Very simple.
James McPherson: Simple is the most beautiful study. The latest research on how to attract people to you in order to achieve your goals, to leave a legacy at the federal government. I didn't have to go to the public archives to learn. As I said at the outset, love people more than you love yourself. Help others get what they want. That's what Zig Ziglar said. Right. Pay attention to what upsets people and be a resource to help them grow and develop so that they can go home feeling good about themselves. So that they're in a better position not only to be a great worker, but to be a great spouse. A great parent, a great friend, and a great family member.
Andrew Cohn: Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom, for continuing to. I feel like. Thanks for taking the time to speak with me because I'm sure you've got people knocking on your door if they're smart. So thank you so much. I look forward to continuing this conversation in whatever form. I appreciate your presence and you're sharing your experience and you share a journey with such simplicity. And of course it ness, if that's a word. And I am inspired by the humility and the service ethic. And it's funny. And the expression I've heard is you're not thinking less of yourself, you're just thinking about yourself less.
James McPherson: Beautiful.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. So thank you so much. I'm looking forward to our next conversation, however that might be. And of course, I wish you the best of luck in everything. And please continue to carry that torch that you're carrying because it's lightening the path for many others. Thank you.
James McPherson: Thank you, Andrew. It's a pleasure to be with you today.
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