A Minute to Arrive: Presence, Listening, and Conscious Leadership, with Craig Souza (Copy)
Most meetings begin with urgency. People arrive distracted, carrying the residue of the last conversation and already thinking about the next one. But what if leadership started with something different, a moment to arrive, breathe, and truly listen?
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn sits down with Craig Souza to explore how mindfulness, presence, and deep listening can transform the way leaders show up at work. Craig is the president of the Conscious Leadership Guild, a former enterprise sales leader at HP, and a mindfulness teacher who has spent years helping leaders integrate awareness and emotional intelligence into everyday leadership.
Craig shares how his journey into spirituality began unexpectedly through recovery and later evolved into bringing mindfulness practices into corporate environments. What began as a side interest eventually became a powerful way to help teams connect more deeply, communicate more effectively, and create healthier workplace cultures.
Throughout the conversation, Craig introduces simple practices leaders can use immediately, from beginning meetings with a minute of presence to practicing mindful listening. These small shifts create space for deeper understanding, stronger relationships, and more thoughtful decision-making.
The discussion also explores Craig’s work with the Conscious Leadership Guild, a community of leaders committed to personal growth and responsible leadership. At its heart, conscious leadership begins with inner work. It involves recognizing how we show up in the world and taking responsibility for our impact.
This episode offers practical ways leaders can bring mindfulness and humanity into everyday interactions and discover how powerful true listening can be.
Key Takeaways
Start With Presence: Beginning meetings with a brief pause or breath helps people transition from busyness into focused attention.
Mindful Listening Builds Trust: When leaders truly listen without interrupting or solving, people feel seen and heard.
Small Practices Create Big Change: Simple habits like three mindful breaths can shift the tone of conversations and decisions.
Bring Your Whole Self to Work: Leadership becomes more authentic when we stop separating who we are at work from who we are in life.
Leadership Begins With Inner Work: Conscious leadership starts by taking responsibility for how we show up and how our presence affects others.
Listening Is a Leadership Skill: Structured listening practices reveal insights and emotions that often remain hidden in normal conversations.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Craig’s initial resistance to spirituality
[00:45] Introducing mindfulness in corporate settings
[02:57] Welcoming Craig Souza
[03:29] Starting meetings with a “minute to arrive”
[05:48] Reception of mindfulness practices at work
[06:03] Craig’s journey to mindfulness and HP experience
[08:13] Impact of mindfulness in conservative corporate cultures
[11:37] Personal integration of spirituality and authenticity
[16:57] Boundaries and authenticity in leadership
[18:22] Applying mindfulness practices at home and work
[19:28] How leaders can introduce mindfulness
[24:30] The power of mindful and whole-being listening
[25:14] The steps of mindful listening
[28:16] Empathetic listening
[31:46] Just practicing mindful listening
[32:38] Focused attention and leadership presence
[33:52] The story behind the Conscious Leadership Guild
[37:44] Principles and norms of the guild
[41:02] Defining conscious leadership
[43:31] Personal growth as the foundation of leadership
[44:49] Resources and how to connect with Craig
[45:25] Closing remarks and podcast outro
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Craig Souza
Website: https://businessawakens.com
Medium: https://medium.com/@craigsouza
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/souzacraig/
Conscious Leadership Guild: consciousleadershipguild.org
Andrew Cohn
Music:
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Transcript
Carolyn Taylor: How can an individual grow and how can a leader grow and what does that look like? And by growth, I mean, I think we've all got the ability over time to learn how to respond. You know, the way in which we respond to life can mature, it can improve, it can get better results for ourselves and other people. Where do people actually learn that they have agency over their own lives, that they can choose a response that will be more useful, that will produce a better outcome, so on and so on. And I think that, you know, that's the role of good leadership development, is helping people get to that step, because you can't automatically assume it's going to happen.
Andrew Cohn: In your years of doing this work, is there a greater appetite for this type of awareness?
Carolyn Taylor: I think there are, yes. I think I've been working in this field now for 30, 40 years, and there's absolutely been a change.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and/or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouse-teams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership podcast, and I'm so happy to have with me in this episode Carolyn Taylor. Carolyn Taylor is a world-renowned expert in organizational culture change and personal development. She has been in the field of business consulting for a number of decades, well known for her book Walking the Talk, which came out 20 years ago, I understand, as well as her book Accountability at Work. And there's another book in the works as well. I appreciate, in addition to her vast knowledge, she is personally revealing. She gives examples of where she is still and where she has grown. She introduces a model for growth, which is a lot of the focus of her work now on individual personal development, as well as providing suggestions for action based upon some of the principles that she discusses. She is a font of wisdom, approachable, resourceful, wise, very experienced. I know you will enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the podcast. I am so happy to have with me today Carolyn Taylor. Carolyn is a world-renowned organizational culture change and leadership development expert. And I am not exaggerating. I've known of her for a while. Our paths have intersected here and there, and I'm so glad that we've reconnected for purposes of highlighting some of your experience and some of what you're working on now. So welcome to the podcast, Carolyn.
Carolyn Taylor: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Andrew Cohn: Of course. One place we might start is this is a topic that I know you've touched upon, spirituality and the intersection of spirituality broadly defined and leadership. Broadly defined. I know your work has touched on this intersection in a number of ways over the years, so I'd love to just ask you a very broad question and ask, where do you see this intersection for yourself now? Or perhaps when did it first come up for you? And you could answer it any way you choose.
Carolyn Taylor: I might be able to give you a quick thumbnail of my own history of how I got into all this. I actually started in the field of personal development, you know, which I would define as, you know, people pay out of their own money because they think there's a way of deepening their life, making it work better, touching into parts of themselves that they weren't able to before, getting their relationships to work, whatever it happens to be. But the key being, I'm giving you permission to really go deep. And I think that's where you start to touch into the spiritual side. I then moved from there and took that content into the corporate sphere where of course people were not paying, they were turning up on a Monday morning to a 2-day leadership program. They may or may not have wanted to be there. And so therefore one had a different level of permission as to what you could cover. But actually what I've found in the years of my career is that leadership is more and more willing to accept that we need to just look at myself a little bit more deeply if I'm gonna become a better leader. So we have permission, I think, to work in with leaders, and you probably found the same thing in ways that You know, maybe we didn't have 30 years ago when I started, but I do see a link between the two 'cause I would define spirituality as the ability to touch into my authentic self, whatever that means, and take down some of the barriers that I've put up between you really knowing who I am and me leading from that place.
Andrew Cohn: Right. Lovely. So when I hear you're saying leaders are more willing, you're talking about as a trajectory over time, leaders have become more willing to engage in these deeper conversations?
Carolyn Taylor: Yes. And I think it's because, you know, led by HR and, you know, a few key and enlightened CEOs over time, they have been asked to take that step. I mean, when I started out my career, there was no leadership programs anywhere. Universities weren't teaching them, there was no, there was nothing. And so, you know, we're talking 30, 40 years now and, you know, life has happened and I think leaders now are expected to have an emotional depth and emotional, you know, a certain level of EQ. I mean, you can think of all the people like Daniel Goleman who would've influenced that thinking where now it's not good enough as a leader, you know, to be a complete bastard in whatever way you manifest. It's not okay to behave in certain ways. And I think, you know, that's for the better of all of us. I've watched that change. I think I've made a contribution to that change.
Andrew Cohn: So could you talk a little bit about, in a little bit more detail, what that path has been and ways that you've contributed to that change? Because I know that when I think of you, the first thing I think about is org culture, for the Walking the Talk years. And, but I don't want to be limited or reductive in any way, but I know that's one way that you've touched, you've touched on this from a broad, broad framework, but please say a bit about that.
Carolyn Taylor: Often kind of a little way into my career, I started off on leaders and growth and how do I grow as a leader and how do I help my people to grow as people? And we'll come on a little bit more to what we mean by growth. What I then realized was that you could sort of shortcut some of that instead of working leader by leader, by creating an overall culture where certain behaviors were encouraged, other behaviors were not encouraged or not tolerated, and you started to actually build a norm in a broader group. So how my later career was about how you create behavior change at scale for which you need the culture, 'cause they're never gonna touch every individual. So that's sort of the link. But I think, you know, I started off very much about how can an individual grow and how can a leader grow and what does that look like? And by growth, I mean, I think we've all got the ability over time to learn how to respond. You know, the way in which we respond to life can mature, it can improve, it can get better results for ourselves and other people. And for me, that's growth. And I mean, a typical example of that, I early on started to teach an idea which kind of moves people from feeling that they were a victim to life. So life was happening to me, to I am making life happen so I can take responsibility and get the results that I want. To ultimately a state where you are in sort of a flow state in a sense where life happens around you and to you, but happens in a way that seems to cause growth rather than limitation. And we called that above and below the line as you moved yourself from feeling a victim to feeling responsible. And that was a major change for people. I mean, I just continue, I can remember, you know, when you go out and talk to people about, and I've done a lot of this, a lot of sort of interviewing people about how is it working in your organization? Tell me about the culture and so on. And people just go into this amazing victim state. They start blaming management for everything. They blame, you know, head office often, especially if head office isn't in the country that they're in. They blame the other divisions who didn't get it right and they justify why things are not working. But in a way that is kind of a victim. And so that movement from that space, which I would call, you know, a very limited or victim position to one where I say, okay, I can contribute to this change. I mean, that's a major, major step. I can always tell, I'll tell you a little story about that.
The way in which I can hear it now in people, you ask people, they turn up late into a seminar, whatever, at 9 o'clock and they arrive at 9:20. And everyone always, when you ask them, says the same thing. Why, you know, I'm so sorry I'm late, traffic was bad. That's the classic. And of course what they're really saying is, I'm sorry I'm late, but I got up this morning and I didn't anticipate how heavy the traffic was going to be. And so therefore I left later than I could have done. If I had left half an hour later, guess what? I would be turning up at this seminar on time. So you listen to that kind of victim way of thinking. And I can hear it now. I can hear it on the television. I can hear it in, you know, it's just everywhere where people go, it's not me. You know, life happened to me rather than I caused life to happen. So I mean, that's just a little example of being able, helping people to change their language. So they say, you know, given traffic, I didn't leave in time. Completely different mindset because then the next day I've got the possibility of saying, okay, maybe I'll leave earlier tomorrow. But if I genuinely think the reason I was late was because of traffic, then I'm gonna leave the same time the next day because I'm gonna assume that it wasn't my fault. And you know, so you can sort of see where that goes. So I love playing with those kind of key ideas and having people grow by seeing that there's a different way of looking at the world. There's a different way of responding to the world. And when people get that, yeah, it's a wonderful experience because I think you don't learn it at school. You know, it's not something that is automatically given to you by your parents. If you're lucky, maybe it is, but many, in fact, many are role modeling the opposite. And so where do people actually learn that they have agency over their own lives? You know, they can choose a response that will be more useful, that will produce a better outcome, so on and so on. And I think that, you know, that's the role of good leadership development is helping people get to that step. Because you can't automatically assume it's gonna happen.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and so what I'm hearing is this is a kind of a, a bold but very true statement. I would suggest that people learn these things in the workplace because they don't learn them in their homes typically, right? And arguably the organization has a very significant incentive to help people understand how this works.
Carolyn Taylor: Yes. And to provide that. And then imagine, I mean, we're not going to talk in depth about culture today, but imagine then if you create a whole culture, a whole environment where thinking that way becomes the norm. And what you do is you start to lift, or rising tide lifts all boats, right? I mean, everybody starts to realize that blaming and feeling a victim and justifying why something isn't happening is not going to wash you. Most people are then, if you create that environment, are able to lift to that. So I do think the workplace is probably the place, good workplaces are investing in this kind of thinking. They're investing in changing the way that people, their mindsets, they're changing the way that people, they think in order to produce a better outcome. I mean, you can, you know, just on that example, you know, you can think about, you know, an organization that I'm working with at the moment where sales are down and, you know, there are lots of reasons that we can give why, you know, the competition has done some interesting things with pricing and the government's made, you know, put in some new regulations that makes it harder for them and so on and so on. But that's not gonna get us anywhere. So helping salespeople to go, given what the government has done, given what the competition has done, and that word given is a really wonderful state change word. How can we now respond? You know, the benefits for organization are massive if you can create that as the normal way of thinking, because people are able to respond to all the many things that happen in life, which are not the way we want them, but how we choose to deal with that. I mean, that's just one example of where I think growing individuals can be in the hands of organizations and they can make a huge difference.
Andrew Cohn: So given what you're speaking about, I know that you have been a part of some significant thought development in the past in areas that you're speaking about. We could talk about some of your experience, but I'm keen on the past. I guess the experience is always in the past, but I'm keen to hear about some of the things that you told me about offline about what you're focusing on now. And perhaps you might loop in some of your experience in the past, or it could be that you might want to just highlight some of the things that you're focusing on now. By the way, did you just see that thing pass across the screen, or was it just me?
Carolyn Taylor: Obviously somebody likes what I'm saying.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I moved my hands to gesticulating in a way, maybe you did too, and all of a sudden there were balloons on the screen. So, okay, we have obviously entered the festive part of the podcast. So with that in mind, where would you like I'd like to take this, if you will, because I know that you're poised to talk about some of your current work.
Carolyn Taylor: So in the last while, I have become increasingly interested in personal growth. So what does it mean to grow as an individual? I mean, obviously you need leaders who are ahead of the curve in their organizations, and that means, you know, the willingness to let go of limited belief systems, limited ways of thinking. And I've got a model I'm working with now about moving from limited to liberated and ultimately to limitless. What does it mean, for example, to feel always that I'm coming from deficit, always that I'm coming from not enough? So I'm not enough, I haven't done enough, I don't have enough, to reaching that place of saying, actually, I have enough. Now I can still then create abundance, but it's coming from a very, very different place. It's coming from a place of being able to see what would be the most useful path and the most beneficial path to others rather than always concerning myself about filling some kind of deficit need in myself. I've become interested, which is actually where my career started, in some of the patterns of thinking and behavior, you know, some of which are, you know, go right back to our childhood and, you know, the things that we learned there. The beliefs that we have about what is and isn't possible in the world, both for me and for other people, you know, beliefs about mistrust, beliefs about what I can and can't expect to get done in the world, whether or not I will get support from other people on that. You can't trust anyone, so you always got to do it yourself, as an example, you know, which is a belief that may have come from way, way, way back. So I'm working more on a at an individual level with leaders about their own beliefs and the extent to which they have beliefs which may actually be buried. I mean, they may not even be conscious of them and which are holding them back from what they could possibly produce. But the first step is always, I have to take some responsibility to say, I have it within my power to do this. And that means, you know, facing sometimes, you know, it's awkward. It's not always comfortable. It's not always easy. It requires courage and ownership and a willingness to have honest conversations with myself and with other people and all the things that can feel a little bit uncomfortable. But more and more, I do think that the world is expecting people to be able to lift to that level. I think organizations are expecting that. And so any way that any of us can help make that happen is going to be a good thing, I think.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. Would you say in your years of doing this work, is there a greater appetite for this type of awareness? Is there, are you finding that like, again, people come into work and they come into a seminar or something in the workplace, are they more ready to discuss this or consider this or try this on?
Carolyn Taylor: I think they are. Yes. I think, I mean, you know, I've been working in this field now for 30, 40 years and there's absolutely been a change. I think for some people, you know, I mean, you know, you've got the children of people who've been thinking that way. So hopefully some of it's coming through, you know, the way that children are being asked to respond to life. I think schooling is starting to help children to take more responsibility for making. So I mean, even going right back there, I think it's changing. And I think organizations now are assessing and looking at leaders in some of the ways I was talking about and saying, is this somebody who's capable of compassion rather than reactivity? I mean, do they get defensive when they get feedback, for example, which is something which is now expected in you know, you are expected to be able to not only take feedback, potentially seek feedback and welcome it when it comes. And that's a state of emotional maturity that I think there is higher expectations. And I think the leaders who are able to do that are, you know, it's becoming a factor in being promoted. And so more and more, you know, good promotes good, doesn't it? And so it gradually builds on itself. So I have noticed that change and, you know, very pleased to see that change. Now, it's not everywhere. I mean, in the political sphere, and you know, I mean, you still see the opposite of that. And you're at the opposite of that. I don't think I can say that this is a permanent state, but I would like to think that organizations actually in a way have so much to gain from their leaders behaving in this way. And they can, you know, in the end, they can see the financial benefit to that. And then, you know, I mean, you see, we were involved, very involved in an organization who had a terrible accident a few years ago, killed a lot of people, hundreds of people. And the process that they went through for reparation and ownership and being able to learn from that and recognize that it was their safety standards and, and you know, they, there were things that they did or they could do. That kind of thinking is, I mean, safety, I think in some ways was one of the first areas where this kind of thinking was evolving because, you know, there was obviously a lot of benefit for everyone to be safer. But I mean, that organization and how they used that experience to turn themselves around as people was really wonderful to watch. And I feel very proud of them and for them.
Andrew Cohn: Nice. Well, and I hear when you use a word like proud, I hear the joy that you take in walking with people through this type of evolution, if I could use that word. And it's interesting, what I'm also prompted to acknowledge is some of the research I've seen over the years here in the US about in the medical profession and the concern about medical malpractice lawsuits, for example, the whole legal industry is its whole thing over here. And I know something about that, and as do you, hopefully not directly, but the notion that doctors are much less likely to be sued when they do something wrong, if they acknowledge it openly and apologize to the patient and acknowledge what happened. But of course, they're mortified, petrified. I can't acknowledge it. You can't say it out loud. Then I am admitting something, you know, when in fact, when patients hear that and when caregivers hear that, they're less likely to feel compelled to, they won't even acknowledge it. I'm so angry. It removes, I mean, for a number of different reasons, which you probably could explain better than I about what's the impact of an acknowledgement and an apology, et cetera, but just the benefits of that type of more evolved thinking and willingness to open oneself up that way.
Carolyn Taylor: And I haven't worked a lot with the medical profession, but I have done a little bit of work and just the fear of doing that and the courage, I think. I mean, I think what it demands of us is, you know, to be able to stand up and admit a mistake in any profession. I mean, medical is, you know, obviously the most extreme mistakes, but any mis? requires a level of self-confidence, I think, and self-worth. And that in itself, you know, reflects a level of development in people. So the more we can help people to reach that place, to see in fact that that is gonna lead to better outcomes for themselves and for other people and, you know, a better quality of life in the end for everybody. Haven't talked, I mean, the area we haven't talked about yet is relationships. I mean, we've focused this very much on leadership, but I think the other area that I'm moved by is the opening of a heart, I think, and the willingness to become less defensive really, you know, and have open and honest conversations and be able to acknowledge, you know, or my own contribution to something that went wrong in an argument and so on. So there is an opening, but you know, that moves from kind of defensiveness to much more intimacy, both in personal life and in corporate life. And what I think is great about this work is it does spill over into people's personal lives. You know, they don't even have to talk about what's going on at home, but they take some of this with them. And they come back and say, hey, you know that thing we were talking about, about how to have an honest conversation? Well, I tried that with my kids at home and guess what? We went to a whole lot of places we weren't at before. I mean, ultimately I'd like to think that where that leads is greater compassion, but greater care for each other at work. Although those words are not greatly used, although I did see a client the other day who had care as one of their three corporate values, which I really liked. They had curiosity, care, and courage. And it was lovely to see that word care explicitly there on their website, which you don't always see that often. So I think there's that dimension as well to all this work. A spiritual dimension, maybe an emotional dimension, we'll call it. Yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Well, so let's, we're teetering on the edge. You just raised this, the S word here.
Carolyn Taylor: Which, well, I mean, knowing your background.
Andrew Cohn: So for you, what is it that brings this conversation? I mean, we're getting into definitions and I don't define what spirituality means. I heard a wonderful quotation recently that said, to define something is to distrust it. I thought that was an interesting notion. I'm not sure I buy into that 100%, but I think I know what the individual meant. But for you, How does this conversation in terms of growth and moving from limited to liberating to limitless, how does this scratch the surface of something that might be called spiritual in your framework?
Carolyn Taylor: I think it certainly connects people with their own authenticity, with who they are. I mean, I think there's so much working and living behind a shield of this is what I want you to think I am, and I feel like I need to put this up and I've got all these things that I hide behind it and never quite see it. So there is definitely, I would link authenticity to touching into my own spirituality. I would also link being values-led. You know, what are the things that I want to stand for as a human being? What are the things that matter to me? And to what extent am I prepared to be unpopular or walk away from a deal or whatever it happens to be? In order to stand by certain principles. So that concept of being values-led or by being principled and the courage that it takes to do that. You know, the word courage comes from the French cœur is, I've got my accent is terrible, is the heart. And art comes from the root of agility or action. So to act from the heart, courage. I like that link. And so I think there is a, that the courage that it involves to act from what you feel is the right thing to do, for me is spirituality. And now that doesn't necessarily involve a greater being. And I think I'll stay off that conversation, but being able to connect to what I know to be right and to feel confident that I can stand by that is certainly something that I think belongs in both corporate and personal life.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, beautiful. And I love what you said to both corporate and personal. And earlier you spoke about people recognizing, so leaders recognizing that if we are having these conversations and developing in this way at work, it impacts what we do at home. I mean, that does come up in a lot of leadership programs that I've been in. People say, oh, well, who I am at home is different. It's like, well, I understand to your point about authenticity, there may be parts of you that are much more transparent and open and out and active. Invisible at home that are not as visible here. Totally get that. And there's a reason for that. It doesn't mean the culture is broken, that it went to label, et cetera, but we are the same person ultimately, even given the shields that we might hide behind. And frankly, many people are hiding behind shields at home as well. It was a separate topic, separate podcast. But I was working with a client, a global consulting firm in Italy, late last year, and we were talking about levels of listening and deeper levels of listening. One of the partners turned to me late morning, which is usually around when it happens, and he said to me, "Oh, this would be a great thing for me to sort of use in my relationship with my teenage daughter." And I said, "Thank you for saying that and thank you for raising that so the whole room could hear it." And inside of me, what's happening when I'm hearing inside myself is, you think? You know, of course, thank you. And of course, isn't that what we want to do is to have get the most impact from some of what we're introducing?
Carolyn Taylor: And taking that as an example, I mean, what I love is when someone is unable to go, so what is it about me that doesn't listen? Why don't I listen? And ultimately one comes down in that case, I think to a certain arrogance which says, well, I already have the answer. And so why, you know, what am I going to gain from listening to you when I have, I find actually I see this sometimes in myself, you know, cause I'm quick, you know, so I get, I get where somebody is going. It's like, okay, I've got what you're trying to say. I think I can have that sentence. I can, you know, you don't need to go on and on and on. And of course it's not just the content of what they're saying. It's also the respect, how much people value being heard. You know, just, I see you, I hear you, I value what you're trying to say to me, even though I might have already kind of known that. So I do think listening and that whole human dimension of relationships and respect for others is a rich scene, as we both know.
Andrew Cohn: Well, and what you just said I think is quite important that, but this notion of, I'm taking it in a slightly different direction, but for someone to ask themselves, why do I think that way? Or why do I operate that way? And that willingness to courageously get under the bonnet, if you will, and look what's really happening in there is an incredible sign of maturity. Hopefully our cultures are those that can create conditions within which that type of question could be asked without fear of reprisal or threat or something like that. And I'm wondering if I could bring this back to what you mentioned earlier. So is that willingness to reflect and courageously ask those questions about my own operating system. I imagine that that connects to your model of moving from limited or moving out of limited to liberating, et cetera. Maybe that's something you could pick up.
Carolyn Taylor: Yes. Because I think at the, at the limited level of, of development, I am defending myself. I mean, essentially I'm feeling that I am not enough. I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough. I haven't. And so therefore I have to hide that from you because if you were to find that out, you know, there's a kind of an imposter syndrome that I think is quite powerful where I feel like I need to put a front up. So when you move beyond that and you are able to move into the space of going, okay, I'm liberated from that. I don't feel constrained by that. And I have enough, I feel inside of myself that I am good enough and smart enough and all the things that I want to be that I don't need therefore to always look perfect in your eyes. And that of course is an incredibly liberating state to be in and comes from self-confidence. Ultimately, I think we then move into a state of humility, if you like, of recognizing that it's not so much really what I'm doing often, it's just that I get in the flow and things will happen for me. So that's where I would go maybe limitless. But if you go to life happens to me, life happens by me, and then ultimately life happens through me, I think it's the first movement that helps one to start to feel that those things become possible. And being willing to be honest about, yeah, okay, I could listen more. And even to say, do you feel like I'm listening to you? Could I do more? I mean, there's a really honest conversation between a leader and their team. Am I spending enough time listening to you? Oh my goodness, there's so many conversations. And when I see a leader do that, and I can think of, you know, some of the absolutely great leaders that I have worked with over the years who had the courage to ask those questions, who knew enough about who they were and were confident enough that they could show that level of it is vulnerability in the end, or perceived vulnerability.
Andrew Cohn: You're onto something beautiful about the impact of leadership and the behaviors that some leaders can demonstrate that are reflections of self-confidence. They're markers of self-confidence, if you will. But these are things that encourage people to be more self-confident, be more self-aware. What are some of the other behaviors that you've seen? I know this is a very broad question, but I just feel like it begs the question, what else have you seen that demonstrates that self-confidence and invites others into that space of growth?
Carolyn Taylor: Well, there's certainly a whole dimension of the relationship with others, mistrust to trust. So that whole dynamic, what does it take for me to trust you? And that doesn't mean that we go out and give people a whole lot of things to do that they're not qualified to do. But it's that assumption that you will grow if I trust you. I think there's another dimension about, I have a confidence in myself that I therefore don't have to show it all the time. So I haven't got to dominate every conversation. I haven't got to be the first person to speak. I can pull from others. I think there's a change that happens around stress because stress is normally associated with you know, things didn't work out the way I wanted them, or, you know, you are not gonna think that I'm good enough or whatever. So there's a movement, I think, from moving from stress to moving to I'm confident that what happens is gonna be okay. That's a big change you see. Let me think about another one that might be relevant. And I'll just pause this just for a second. I think people change, I notice, in the way that they express their opinions. So I think when I'm coming from, I'm not good enough. I may express opinions tentatively, but then comes a point where I tend to express my opinions assuming that they are the facts. So therefore this is what I'm saying and this is the truth and this is the only truth. There's then another stage, which I think is a limitless stage, which is to say that my truth is one truth, but you might have a different truth and maybe neither of them. Maybe between us there is a third truth that is better than both. So I noticed a change in the way that people work together to solve problems, to have opinions about things, to come to conclusions about things.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, these are all beautiful. I'm trying to jot some of these things down, but you're talking initially, you're saying, I trust you will learn. And it touches into certainly what I've seen and read and used and which my understanding is you helped create really about learner mindset, if you will, and moving away from Carol Dweck's fixed mindset, right? I trust that you will learn. There's much more out there than what I see. Moving away out of nowhere mindset or fixed mindset into learner mindset, growth mindset. Not needing to prove anything, which is just lovely and precious. Another great marker of self-confidence, right? I'm sure, I'm certain of myself and my own abilities that I don't need to prove to you or have that on the front burner for myself all the time. I need to do that. And then the word that comes up for me with the one you mentioned about moving out of stress into a sort of belief or assumption that things will work out, I think is how you put it. It's almost like, is it moving into a greater state of optimism?
Carolyn Taylor: Absolutely a state of optimism. And I think there's a, it's a strange thing. I mean, I certainly have experienced it myself and it's hard to describe it where I used to feel like I need to make good things happen as opposed to I can get myself into the right place and the right state of mind where good things happen around me. It's hard to put your finger on it without sounding like you're being passive, but you're not. I don't feel passive. I feel, you know, I can't remember the last time why I felt stressed about something or where I felt like something was going really wrong. Or, I mean, life just unfolds. Yeah, it's hard to describe.
Andrew Cohn: No, it is, but you're really getting into something very rich about this state. And now you're talking more at the limitless phase, if you will, right? Life is happening through me. It's a sense of the image that comes to mind when you speak of that. And if I'm not accurate with this, please correct me. It's a bit like I'm sailing, I'm the captain of this sailing ship, but I don't need to produce the wind, right? I need to adjust my sail and respond to it and leverage, et cetera. But I don't need to be responsible for the wind. Oh my God.
Carolyn Taylor: That's a very good analogy. I think I used to feel that I had to push everything to make it happen. And now I think I'm more, you know, I'll push and then if it doesn't respond, I'll push somewhere else. Or you know what I mean? Like, and then suddenly a whole lot of things happen that you weren't expecting. So it's a kind of a good place to be in. The other thing that I've noticed that changes through this growth journey is the breadth of your perception of life. So there's a woman called Susanne Cook Greuter who does amazing work on levels of development. And one of the things she looks at is how you think and look longer term, for example. You see around the corners of the implications of what's happening right now. So I think that's one of the reasons why you don't catastrophize as much because there's a sense that over time things are gonna work out and we mustn't jump to conclusions based on what's just happened today, but rather look at it in a broader or even wait a little was always the hardest thing for me. I think just wait if the answer isn't clear and maybe something will reveal itself in the next while. So that I think is a definite growth movement. What you can see in people and you can hear it in the way that they talk about where they're focusing their attention. Are they focusing their attention 10 years down the track or are they focusing their attention only on what happened yesterday and what's going to happen tomorrow? Can they see the patterns of events that transfer and from those patterns learn from those patterns?
So all of these things, come of course from what I'm calling growth. And I hope that as a result of this, you know, people will start to go, so how can I do this? So I'd like to kind of just close off a little bit in terms of talking a little bit about what are the paths that are open. So the first thing I'd like to say is you probably need the help of others. I think it's hard to grow alone. There has to be feedback that comes from others. There has to be some kind of nudge which says, "Oh, you've been thinking that for 10 years and maybe it's outdated now. Let's take " So I think the help of others is an important one. I mean, for me personally, I started on the path of meditation. I meditated for 40 years now. That's been a, I think bypassed a lot of the stress in my system, but that wasn't enough. There was also, I think, the willingness to look at myself in the mirror, to go into that kind of personal development arena, to have people help me do that growth, to go through the discomfort and, you know, the courage that it takes and so on and so on. So I think it's some combination of self-reflection, being nudged by other people, having the courage to take those steps. And there's lots of stuff out there now that you can, you know, there are lots of programs out there. I mean, I'm coaching a wonderful organization called thegrowthoption.com who does work both in corporate and in the personal sphere in terms of what does it actually take to grow. So I would very much recommend them, thegrowthoption.com. But there are many, I mean, there are people all over the world who are offering this now. And I think to, I think one has to assume that I'm gonna need to find a path. I'm gonna need people who will help guide me. And I'm the work that I'm doing. It's the work I know many of us are doing. I think you are doing it yourself. So it's kind of nice to meet someone like you and know that we're both on this same path.
Andrew Cohn: We're doing this. Indeed. Yes, absolutely. What else would you include in that if people are asking themselves how, what in response to the how question?
Carolyn Taylor: So the first step is reading and podcasts and people who push us in this way. And there are great books and there are great people who think about that. And I would highly recommend looking at millions of different ways to do that. I'm reading a wonderful book at the moment called From Role to Soul, which is about how, as you get older, how do you change and start to, I mean, that's just one small example about what am I here and what's my role in the world. So I think reading and podcasts make a difference.
Andrew Cohn: By the way, Skye, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I need to do a quick plug for a marvelous book that just reminds me of a wonderful book by Father Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan priest in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And his book related to that is called Falling Upward: Spirituality in the Two Halves of Life. Yeah, Falling Upward: Spirituality in the Two Halves of Life. And it seems to connect with just the title that you just mentioned, but please continue. I just wanted to put that on the recording.
Carolyn Taylor: I think the first step people will often take is reading self-help books. I think they take us so far, but there has to be a moment where we look, I think, at our patterns, at our childhood, at, you know, what caused us to be the way that we were and are. And for that, a personal coach makes a big difference. There are people, you know, there are programs that we can go on that will help that path. So that would be the second area that I think we need to explore is to get that kind of feedback from other people. I think there's a period of self-reflection that goes on within all of that. You know, what am I prepared to give up? How does this play out in my relationships at work? And so on and so on. So it's that combination, I think, reading, attending programs, having personal coaches.
Andrew Cohn: And the reflection. I love that you're including reflection because we could have the greatest questions in the world. I read a beautiful quotation recently that said, questions subvert mindsets, right? So we ask the right question, we could get underneath our own mindsets, but not if we don't reflect. It's in the pace of life that we're living. It's so fast and it's so, oh, I'm going to give this some serious thought in the lift between floor 2 and floor 6. No, we need some time to reflect in order to really give this the space that's learners?
Carolyn Taylor: Well, that's why I would, you know, really encourage meditation. I mean, to take that time to just close your eyes and allow things to come through. I mean, I've been doing that for a long time. I know it's made a difference. So that would be another path that I would encourage people to take.
Andrew Cohn: Lovely. And so you've discussed a lot and you mentioned thegrowthoption.com. If people wanted to learn more about your work, some of what you're working on, some of what you've written or otherwise, what would you highlight either in terms of books or websites or otherwise?
Carolyn Taylor: Oh, so I have carolyntaylorculture.com is my own website and you know, I post things on there and you can see talks from me on there. There are lots of talks on YouTube that I've given. I wrote a book, my first book was called Walking The Talk. I wrote it now 20 years ago. It's still a bestseller. It's still going really, really well. People buy like 50 copies at a time for their organization. It's great to see. And that was really about how do you create a culture in an organization? But it's, you know, quite strongly about, it's about walking the talk yourself. So how do I become a role model? What does that take? How do I encourage that behavior in others? And then recently I've gone more deeply into, as a result, I think of some of the requests that I've had from organizations into the concept of accountability. So what does it take to be somebody who you can be counted on? So can I count on you to playing on the words of that? How do you hold people to account? How do I become somebody who always delivers what I say I'm gonna do and therefore has got a trustworthiness? And so I have another book called Accountability At Work: How to Make and Keep Promises and Assure That Others Do the Same, which has also been, so those are my two books. I'm about to write another book now on enough, which I mentioned before. What does enough really mean? How do I get to that place where I'm not coming from a deficit enough? I've done enough, I have enough, and I'm able to then explode in terms of my potential to operate in a different way. So those are some places I would point people.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you so much. Well, here's to healthy growth-filled explosions. I greatly appreciate the work that you do, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and knowledge and inviting— I feel invited into the conversation and into movement, if you will. So I'm super grateful for that. Thank you. Great. All right.
Carolyn Taylor: Well, goodbye. And I wish everyone well in their journey of growth.
Andrew Cohn: Yes.Thank you, Carolyn.
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