Jump Every Day: Courage, Curiosity, and Connection, with Dr. James Smith Jr."
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, host Andrew Cohn welcomes his longtime friend and colleague Dr. James Smith Jr., an award-winning speaker, presentation coach, and expert in authenticity and leadership. Known for his electrifying presence and motivational wisdom, Dr. Smith shares deeply personal stories from raising his son to jumping out of a plane that illustrate what it means to live authentically and lead with vulnerability.
Together, Andrew and James explore how spirituality, listening, and curiosity open doors to connection across cultures, generations, and organizations. They discuss the metaphor of “front seat, back seat, and trunk” as a lens for understanding what truly matters to people, why possibility thinking is a spiritual practice, and how leaders can invite trust by sharing their own stories first.
Whether you’re a seasoned executive, a new manager, or simply someone who wants to live more courageously, this conversation will inspire you to “jump every day” into the opportunities life presents.
Key Takeaways
Leadership Is Not a Beauty Contest: True leadership requires vulnerability, listening, and the willingness to get messy.
Possibility Thinking as a Spiritual Practice: Where others see problems, great leaders see possibilities.
The Front Seat Metaphor: Trust grows when leaders understand what matters most to people their “front seat” priorities.
Fear and Authenticity: Many leaders hold back out of fear, but authenticity builds stronger teams and relationships.
Jump Every Day: Whether skydiving or starting a tough conversation, growth comes from taking leaps that scare us.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Introduction and possibility thinking
[05:06] Personal journey and spiritual foundation
[07:09] Parenting and spiritual shifts
[08:55] Navigating spirituality across cultures
[10:31] Curiosity and cross-cultural connection
[13:06] Childlike curiosity vs. adult inhibition
[16:29] Authenticity, fear, and imposter syndrome
[17:02] Goal-oriented vs. personality-driven leadership
[19:25] People-pleasing and generational shifts
[21:24] Meaning, advocacy, and shared goals
[22:13] Openness to conversations on meaning
[24:24] Leadership as inviting conversation
[28:01] Spirituality’s place in the workplace
[29:14] Choice, accountability, and personal maps
[30:32] Access, connection, and remote work
[32:10] Non-technological ways to connect
[38:15] Conversations as relationship-building
[41:51] Skydiving as a metaphor for growth
[43:59] Closing and contact information
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Dr. James Smith, Jr.
Website: https://www.drjamessmithjr.com/
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Listen to the Podcast here
Watch our Podcast video here
Transcript
James Smith Jr.:. Life is not a spectator sport. It's getting in. It's getting messy. It's getting dirty. It's learning what to do and what not to do. I really believe in possibility thinking. One of my favorite quotes is where most people see problems, I see possibilities where most people see obstacles, I see opportunities.
Andrew Cohn: Have you seen leaders navigate these waters of spirituality, bringing the best of themselves while making it safe and inclusive and inviting for others to bring the best of themselves?
James Smith Jr.: It's evolving. We used to have it more autocratic, direct leadership style. We've seen that more prevalently of late. We're not seeing the vulnerable, innovative, creative leader that we're going to see in the future, but it is shifting. I would say we probably score a see if we were to measure leader's effectiveness and being able to navigate great spirituality, I think many leaders avoid it or quite frankly, don't believe in it.
Intro: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast hosted by Andrew Cohn. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops or team alignment, Please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm very happy to share this next episode with my long time friend and colleague, Doctor James Smith Jr. James is based in Philadelphia. He is a personal leadership expert, an engaging and compelling speaker, award winning public speaker, and public speaking teacher and presentation skills expert. He's a master motivator and culture changer. He shares some of his personal story, as always, with his upbeat, wise perspective. Ever positive. Ever practical. He talks about some of his experience with his son as a teacher and his son's experience and being a dad towards his son. This son and ships he needed to make in himself, relying upon what he called his spiritual foundation. He talks a lot about listening and the importance of listening. He shares a beautiful story of learning across cultures and the opportunity that can happen from being open to asking questions.The power of curiosity. He talks often about possibility thinking, and we spent a lot of time in this conversation talking about vulnerability and how authenticity and vulnerability is required of leaders in today's workplace. As he says, leaders might get dirty leaning into this kind of listening. But leadership is not a beauty contest. We need to do it. The opportunity is for leaders to invite powerful conversations. And that's essentially what leadership is. Listening and learning and not wanting to be right, but wanting to be curious. You see this beautiful metaphor about understanding what parts of ourselves are in our front seat, back seat and trunk as if our consciousness were a vehicle. And he says the best leaders are the ones who are able to slide into the front seat with us to connect and build trust, which is in large part earned by sharing their own stories and leading themselves. When I asked him this, it was interesting. He said, yeah, essentially seeking deep understanding of another with the intention of connecting and supporting is in fact a spiritual practice.
Andrew Cohn: It was a lovely moment in the conversation about how each conversation creates safety, as James says, how we make deposits with each positive conversation, with openness and vulnerability and curiosity. He closes our conversation, sharing his experience, doing what scared him the most, namely Skydiving, and he encourages us to jump every day. And I find in my conversations with him, he stimulates me to do more, to stretch, to learn, to grow, to think about what else may be possible. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Welcome Doctor James Smith, my old friend and colleague. It's such a joy to have you with me on the Spirituality and Leadership podcast. How are you today?
James Smith Jr.: I am doing fantastic, Andrew. The pleasure is mine. Thank you for creating this opportunity for us to chop it up.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Chop it up indeed to scrimmage. So you are in your office in full in the Philadelphia area?
James Smith Jr.: Right outside of Philly. I'm in Mount Laurel, New Jersey. But you ask me, born and raised, I always say West Philadelphia.
Andrew Cohn: West Philadelphia, beautiful place.
James Smith Jr.: Oh, yeah.
Andrew Cohn: Brings me back memories
Andrew Cohn: Indeed. So thank you for being here. I have shared a little bit about this podcast with you, but we haven't really had conversations about this. We know each other a little bit differently, so I appreciate the openness and the trust, and I'm excited to see where this might lead.. One thing that I might ask you first is what interests you about spirituality in leadership?
James Smith Jr.: I believe with the numerous changes we've had over the past several years, that leadership has had to evolve as well. We're living and working in a very tense time, a very people centric time, and I believe leaders should look into this and really spend time with spirituality so that they can enhance the quality of their leadership. Now given again, it's not even a new normal. It's a new changes every day.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. So could you describe or share a little bit about your journey and how you got to this place? Because I've known you through several iterations, incarnations and embodiments.
Andrew Cohn: A lot of appreciation and respect for all of them. So how did you get to this place of where you are with your current point of view about leadership?
James Smith Jr.: As far back as I can remember, I always thought that there was something bigger than me, bigger than the universe. Something that you can't wrap your arms around. There's a certain level of belief and consciousness that needs to be there. And I was always told I was an old soul, but I really spent a lot of time thinking about possibilities, thinking about what if when you told me that's not going to work, I wanted to figure out why not? So I began to believe that there was something greater. Bigger. At one point, I likened it to my religion. I'm a Christian Baptist, and I do know that some people are spiritual and not religious, so I get that. But I've always played with possibilities and I from a young age believed in the law of attraction. What you focus on grows and I just live a life of being very positive, and I have used my spirituality beliefs to keep me motivated and keep me at peace during times when they weren't as peaceful as they could have been.
Andrew Cohn: So your spirituality and religion for you has supported you. It's been something you can lean on. It's something that can hold you up, keep you up.
James Smith Jr.: Absolutely. Time and time again, I said a deeper level of consciousness. The things have always been great. I'm thinking positively. Nine times out of ten, things worked out for me was professional. I would say everything is supposed to be what it's supposed to be. But I would say my greatest, greatest disappointment. I did not expect my son to be diagnosed as non-verbal and on the autistic spectrum. Didn't see that coming. I'm a speaker. I run my mouth for a living. I just knew when my little guy came around when I was 44 years old, waited for a minute that he would be ready made. James Smith Junior 2.0. But that wasn't in the plans. I had to really, really be prayerful and thoughtful and just be still to work out that experience. And it wasn't until I changed how I showed up and stopped looking for my big guy to change how he's showing up, that things began to get better.
James Smith Jr.: He's still the same 17 now, but I'm the one that had to make the shift where I shifted to focusing on what he could do and not only what he could not do.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, and that's something that your spirituality and your foundation that way. Does that word fit?
James Smith Jr.: Yes, yes, yes. Something that Jason was, was started a long time ago. My mother initiated it. My parents were divorced when I was 11, so I didn't have that father figure around other than going to church to sing the pastor. And I thought, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the coaches in my life. But from a young age, my mother put the Bible on my lap and started teaching me about faith and belief.
Andrew Cohn: You interact with a lot of people. You speak with a lot of groups all over the world. You've taught well, you've taught me and you've taught hundreds, if not thousands of people. How do you interact with them about ideas like this? Knowing that people are coming from very different places? I mean, you recently back from Asia, they don't know from Baptists.
Andrew Cohn: And so how do you manage that? So that you can be who you are and all of who you are without drawing a line or building fences or walls or making people uncomfortable about it?
James Smith Jr.: And you had to do a lot of listening. I do a lot of asking of questions. I'm big on Stephen Covey's tips. Seek to understand before you seek to be understood. And I'm a learner. I'm a learner because I believe the more I understand you and I understand us. If there's going to be in us. I do not throw out my beliefs whether they are spiritual, religious, political, you know, I focus on communication. I focus on the goal that we have set for each other. I believe if you focus on the goal and not the person, you focus on the behavior, not the person. Things should be a lot more harmonious that we tend to take things personally and professionally. But again, a lot of listening, a lot of talking, a lot of wanting to understand. Beautiful.
Andrew Cohn: I'm curious to hear any story you might have where you are able. You can remember connecting deeply with someone from another culture, or another spiritual practice or another tradition. I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I'm sure you've got stories, and I know you've had.
James Smith Jr.: Plenty of plenty. The one that just popped into my mind goes back to the early Week 90s, I was working full time for a major organization. I won't give the name. And they had started their diversity initiative, and they wanted me to play a key role in the training, the content creation and so forth. I didn't jump at it right away because I didn't want to be that black guy who does diversity, and I thought their initial answers for why me were not accurate, and we finally got to the heart of that. But I remember going to a conference, it was called the American Association of Training and Development. It's now called the Association of Talent Development ATD. And I said, I'm going to go to all the workshops that featured content on diversity.
James Smith Jr.: I'm going to be here for 3 or 4 days. I'm going to diversity, equity, inclusion and diversity. That was my thought. Remember after the first day getting back on the shuttle that was going back to the hotel. There was one other person there. She was sitting toward the back and I looked at her, made some eye contact, and realized she had a red dot right there. I assumed it had something to do with her religion and beliefs, and I didn't know what it meant. So, Andrew, I went back to introduce myself, told her that I was new to the world of diversity, and I was looking to learn a lot this week at the conference. Would you mind telling me, what does the red dot? What does that mean? The keynote again. I'm attempting to learn everything I can. She started laughing. She said, I can't believe this. We're in the same boat. I'm brand new too. I'm going to go to sessions during the conference to do the same thing.
James Smith Jr.: And I have a question for you. Should I call you Black or African American? Now, we sat on that shuttle bus going back and forth from a hotel to the conference center for a good hour, just talking about our beliefs, asking questions, and just creating some great conversations. We stayed in contact for several years after that, but when you asked me what comes to mind, that was the first story that came to mind.
Andrew Cohn: So I hear that story, and I hear about the power of curiosity and openness and a nonjudgmental, just curiosity. Just curiosity. Please tell me your story. I want to learn.
James Smith Jr.: I think as children we do a great job of that. But as we get older, we start creating stories for what's going to happen. So we don't ask those questions anymore.
Andrew Cohn: Yes, and we're afraid that we're going to get it wrong. I remember, watching I think it was a comedian talking about if an adult were learning to walk, she would take a few steps and she'd fall down and she'd say, oh, I guess I'm not a walker.
James Smith Jr.: That's it. That's it.
Andrew Cohn: And kids don't know enough to be judging themselves, and they're able to stand up and keep going and just do what I know. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to do this. I'm going to use these legs.
James Smith Jr.: I'm reminded of, you know, the zealous first grader, second grader raising their hand. Whoo hoo! Call me. Now, as adults, we may do this. This might not be what you're looking for, but I'm going to take a stab at it. What? What happened to your boo boo?
Andrew Cohn: Well, and I know that part of your work. And correct me if I'm wrong here or part of your work is all about. Bring me that. Ooh hoo hoo that your organization needs it, and the world needs it.
James Smith Jr.: Yeah. Life. Life is not a spectator sport. It's getting in. It's getting messy. It's getting dirty. It's learning what to do and what not to do. I really believe in possibility thinking.
James Smith Jr.: One of my favorite quotes is where most people see problems. I see possibilities where most people see obstacles, I see opportunities. I'm the Law of Attraction guy, I want the Matrix. One of my favorite movies of all time. Being able to see what others don't perceive exists. Mindset. Consciousness.
Andrew Cohn: This podcast is focused on leaders at all levels, at work, in all kinds of work that could be volunteer work, by the way. So how have you seen leaders navigate these waters of spirituality, bringing the best of themselves while making it safe and inclusive and inviting for others to bring the best of themselves? Perhaps even when you don't have that luxury of time on the bus. Or you don't have that luxury of 1 to 1, and you need to assert yourself, and you may not know where other people in the room are coming from. How have you seen leaders navigate this space?
James Smith Jr.: Well it's evolving. We used to have it more autocratic, direct leadership style. We've seen that more prevalently of late.
James Smith Jr.: We're not seeing the vulnerable, innovative, creative leader that we're going to see in the future, but it is shifting. I would say we probably score a see if we were to measure leaders effectiveness and being able to navigate spirituality. I think many leaders avoid it or quite frankly, don't believe in it. There's still a style of this is what I do, or the style of follow me as I show you how it's done. That's even evolving too. Because of the Great Resignation and many people working from home, leaders really have to step into their vulnerability, their authenticity, their wanting to listen, to learn. Not just to direct you left or right. It's a new day. But I still think that leaders are still struggling with it. When I did my research on authenticity, I was amazed by the number of senior leaders who say depending on where I'm at, who I'm speaking to, will determine the degree of authenticity that I'll get to. Primarily with smaller groups. I'm more authentic. The larger groups I'm more inclined to give the company line, company speak.
Andrew Cohn: And what I hear you say that I hear fear. Is that how that lands for you as well?
James Smith Jr.: That holds true for me. Big time. Fear. A fear of not having control. Feel a fear of ambiguity. Fear of the unknown. Fear of perhaps feeling like they are an imposter. So now we're getting into imposter syndrome. A lot of it, I believe, is chased with fear. We have to learn how to uncouple fear from ambiguity. People will want them together. But yes, I do hear fear, right?
Andrew Cohn: And as I hear you talk about the transition of leadership in this notion of follow me, and I hear you say, follow me in the night. Think about what you said earlier, about the difference between the person and the behavior or the person and the goal. I wonder if we could talk about the distinction between follow me and my personality and me as an individual, versus let's go together towards this goal.
James Smith Jr.: The first Example, I don't think it has lasting power.
James Smith Jr.: Yes, we can work for that narcissistic, tough drill sergeant boss for a period of time after that, that working for that person. Because we have to, not because we want to. It's going to wane where I believe the successful leader and you can use your own definition of successful, is one that cares for the people that are in his or her care, is able to inspire and motivate and lift and create an empowering environment. I don't think an individual can empower someone. That person has to be self empowered, but you can create an environment where people thrive and look for ways to be the best possible version of themselves.
Andrew Cohn: I know you do this time and time again in your work. What do you do and what have you seen leaders do to invite that best from others? What brings them into the arena?
James Smith Jr.: Looking to build and establish trust. I'm looking to be vulnerable, looking to enhance the relationships of their team members, and part of that will involve them sharing more of who they are, their mission, their personal beliefs, sharing when they fell down because they're standing now.
James Smith Jr.: Which means they use some sort of recipe to bounce back. Or if there were someone in their lives to help them bounce back. So I think there's a more authentic and a more vulnerable leadership style where you're not coming across as the expert or perceived expert. And I'm reminded of Kurt Cobain's quote that says, I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not. I believe that today's leaders, stepping into their authenticity, will also step into other avenues of their life that can help them become that more empowering.
Andrew Cohn: I love that quote. I love that Kurt Cobain makes it into this conversation. It wouldn't expect that he would be the first. But here he is so well.
James Smith Jr.: Andrew is someone who has spent more years than I like to admit. People pleasing. I really take that to heart. Now I have torn up my president of the Philadelphia People Pleasing Society. Get rid of it. No more subscriptions. Well, I spent a lot of time putting other people first. Their needs, their beliefs.
James Smith Jr.: And when I did not, I was met with conflict and consternation. So I turned into this passive aggressive guy who over the years, eventually found the right GPS. But yeah, I know what it's like to go along and get along. Fake it til you make it that I abhor.
Andrew Cohn: Now my hand is raised when you talk about those people these days. yeah. And I used to carry that card around at the PS, but it was only that somebody wanted me to, Do you think that there's generational shifts happening, like with your daughter, who I continue to hear wonderful things about?
James Smith Jr.: No.
Andrew Cohn:Do you think it's different now? Do you think that the generation coming up is a little bit less likely to fold into expectations or perceived expectations of how and what and whom they're supposed to be?
James Smith Jr.: I think there's a and both I see this new generation as very witty and pithy and technology centric, very curious, curious for understanding, for self-understanding. I don't think they are in a stereotype here, but with regard to order and do it because I say do it.
James Smith Jr.: I don't think that's going to fly the way it once did. So I believe we have had a shift, and I believe with that shift that the younger generations will continue to search for meaning. I believe they are big time searchers of meaning, and I believe they would need us by us baby boomers in the advocate place as well. We were advocates back in the 60s and 70s, and I see a lot of advocacy work around inclusion happening today.
Andrew Cohn: And perhaps that advocacy work is one of these shared goals, like let's work together towards this goal as opposed to following me as an individual. Yeah, my goal is an inviting and a shared and an inspirational goal for us to move towards together.
James Smith Jr.: Especially if that leader creates that meaning and purpose in incorporating the team's meaning and purpose, getting them to see their vision in his or her vision.
Andrew Cohn: On the generational theme, just another question. Do you think that your daughter's generation is more or less likely, more or less willing to jump into a conversation about meaning, perhaps a conversation about spirituality, even religion? Or is that something that they're more open to get into? Or perhaps it's, oh, that's our parent stuff.
Andrew Cohn: We don't need to go there.
James Smith Jr.: No, I'm laughing because my daughter would certainly leap into that conversation. However, it would be a conversation where she would want to be heard and understood. I believe first because she has her beliefs and she has strong beliefs, and she's not afraid or apprehensive to express herself. She was raised to be expressive. And as she's gotten older, she's decided to continue to be so nice. I see a lot of folks wanting to be heard, not necessarily wanting to hear.
Andrew Cohn: And is that a welcome change? Is that a problem? Is that something that becomes difficult for leaders and organizations to manage because people want to be heard, as opposed to they want to roll up their sleeves and get things done? What do we do with that?
James Smith Jr.: I believe that too much of any one thing is too much as a speaker, too much lecture, too much PowerPoint, too many activities. There needs to be balance. And I believe that if that leader creates that empowering environment, that's going to create a two way conversation where both sides would want to open up and share more of themselves.
James Smith Jr.: I believe that's the trend I've seen, but believe the leader has to be the one who starts and goes first and is vulnerable to share thoughts about direction. Thoughts about professional development and growth and perhaps where they fall short. Asking for feedback. The leader who does that is going to create a nonstop communication chain. Because what leader asks team members for praise and polish and possibilities praise what he or she's doing well, Polish what they're not doing well and possibilities for them to use to do it better going forward. I would not want to shut them down, but I would want to create a space where we both are looking to honor each other's generation.
Andrew Cohn: I'm just reflecting. There's so much in what you just said. So the leader has an opportunity to shift a conversation that way. And here you describe this behavior. What comes up for me is leadership. When anyone in the room begins that conversation and leans in in that way, that's leadership, right? Doesn't need to be the person with the title or the person with the, you know, back in the day, the office, the gold watch, whatever that symbol would have been.
Andrew Cohn: Yes, the parking spot, you know. Now that's insane to think of it that way.
James Smith Jr.: But wow, you're right. Right.
Andrew Cohn: But that leadership behavior, right? To begin that conversation is to invite people into that space, is to bring people together, is to help all of us move forward. Is that how you see that?
James Smith Jr.: I do, I do, I liken it to I share this model when I do diversity, equity, inclusion. It's called the car model. And I asked people to think about parts of the car. I'm sorry, not parts of the car. Their personal items that they bring to the front seat. The back seat in the trunk. The front seat would be sunglasses. Your cell phone. Back seat, maybe your coat, umbrella, trunk, emergency items, extra pair of sneakers, golf clubs, whatever. And I believe that those items that are in the front seat for us are extremely important. That's why they're in the front seat. Our sunglasses change water, I believe.
James Smith Jr.: Back seat items are not as important, but they need to be able to be reached. Hence coat map map or briefcase map. That wasn't that in our trunk. Again. Emergency. We take the personal items that we put in the car, replace them with elements of diversity like gender, sexual orientation, age, thinking style, race and find out what's significant, which would be the front seat. And we're able to have front seat conversations. And if you are in my front seat as my boss, you're getting to know me and I rest assured I'm getting to know you as well. Physical ability is in my front seat. Neurodiversity is in my front seat. I mentioned to you I have a son who is non-verbal. I'm 62 years old. Age is in my front seat, races in my front seat. So to get to know me is to have front seat conversations. If you were the leader and Andrew, in my 14 years of corporate, I only had one leader that got in my front seat and I was in hers, and I worked for that organization for three years.
James Smith Jr.: So 11 years out of 14, I did not have a compelling, strong, authentic, vulnerable relationship with my managers.
Andrew Cohn: So when you say that leader got into your front seat, meaning you'd comfortably sit side by side and relate to one another around those things that were most important to you?
James Smith Jr.: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And even in everyday conversation, not editing our thoughts of truly wanting to get to know me by opening up Castle for me to get to know her. Andrew. She knew me so well that she knew I loved boxing. So when a boxing match was coming on HBO or Showtime or one of those channels, she wouldn't let me know. Fight tonight, fight on Friday, final Saturday. And she didn't pay extra money that wasn't taking money from the organization or enhancing or increasing her budget. She just got to know me, and she said that one day that I wouldn't be a speaker, a consultant, or that corporate, I would get on board with corporate. And she's right.
Andrew Cohn: I love that and that metaphor.
Andrew Cohn: Some of the ideas that are kicked around in this podcast around spirituality. For some people, their spirituality could be front and center, could be where the fuzzy dice are in the rearview mirror there. So yes, yes. Or it could be that it's just not relevant. And what I have found is and I'd love to hear your experience with this. What I've found is that sometimes I'm not even aware of what's in my front seat and what's not until I encounter another person, for example, who I run into. I'm speaking with someone, and all of a sudden they're very out there with their own religious beliefs. And not that I have a problem with that, but it surprises me. And all of a sudden, for me, it's like, well, wait a minute. I'm just recognizing that that may be in the back seat today. And I don't know that I could be in the front seat together with that person on that issue. But I also recognize, well, no, no, that's where they are with that.
Andrew Cohn: If I'm curious and I'm open, let me slide in next to you. I have some questions for sure, but or even something, for example, like disability or sometimes sexual orientation or things that I may not think about until someone shows up or my, you know. Right. My son shows up and his girlfriend is a different race or is disabled in some visual that I could tell. I may or may not be able to tell. And all of a sudden that dimension of diversity is somewhere in my car and I didn't even realize it.
James Smith Jr.: Yeah, we all have maps, but our maps cannot be everyone's territory. So it's listening and choosing whether you want to listen even more. I think choice is so important. I like to say when we're young we look a lot like our parents, but when we get older we look a lot like our choices, and hopefully we'll make the right choice and be accountable and responsible for our behaviors and actions.
Andrew Cohn: And as we get older, sometimes we look like our parents' choices.
James Smith Jr.: Yes yes yes indeed, yes indeed. I believe if you want to create that environment of trust and authenticity, you have to live what you give. You have to live it. And people are very learned these days, and they have shorter attention spans and distance sometimes. So you're not going to have as much access as you always wanted to as you had in the past. Access is not the same. If there's too much going on, there's too much technology. People going from meeting to meeting to meeting. And like we said earlier, pretty soon businesses aren't going to have addresses because everyone's working remotely.
Andrew Cohn: So say more about access and what can leaders do? What can any of us do in an organizational setting to promote access? And when I hear access, I think what the word that comes up for me is attention or space or holding space. What can we do given the shift towards remote work, etc.? What can we do to promote and drive access where just practically speaking, it's just not as available? Or maybe it is.
James Smith Jr.: I think about the energy that many display when it comes to social media. They want to make sure their TikTok, they don't make sure they're Instagramming, Facebooking, linking in. You name the platform. But there's a certain energy around that. I believe a similar energy should be held by leaders in wanting to connect with make time for them, whether it's phone, whether it's a zoom, whether it's teams, whether it's an email, whether it's a text, there are a number of lanes to that person's mindset and heart set. We should consider having purposeful, very intentional energy to connect with people and myriad ways, since we no longer have to get up and walk down the hall to the other person's office like we once had. I'm saying use a variety of tools when you can't see that person face to face.
Andrew Cohn: Great. And I love that you're talking about this theme of connection that's been a theme in the early episodes of this podcast about connection. In fact, for some, as I've heard it described to me, that's really what the spirituality piece is all about.
Andrew Cohn: So tell me about some of the myriad of ways there's tell me about some of the technologies which may have nothing to do with physical technology that promote our connecting with one another. Wow.
James Smith Jr.: For me, many of the people that I connect with professionally have been done via books, articles, spending quality time with them in the evening or during lunch. Again, I said it earlier, the only tool is just listening and learning and not wanting to be right or not into a right fight or right fight is fighting to be right. And in words. My love language is touch and words of understanding, words of appreciation. I love those types of conversations where I do get to know what's in your front seat. I do get to know what's important to you. I get to know the problem you solve and help you solve that problem. But it's getting to know you and not being afraid of being vulnerable and sharing what I don't know, right?
Andrew Cohn: To be that, continue to be that man on the bus, you know.
James Smith Jr.: Because that's the way we were. We were young. I just want to know. I just want to understand so I can be a better person. And if I don't know if I'm a CEO of my own company, if I don't know the answer, it's not going to crush our brand. I just don't know the answer. But I'll get it for you. I don't think leading is a beauty contest. You're going to get dirty if you choose to really get to know your people in an authentic way, and for me, in a spiritual way, because I believe there's something that's out there that's bigger than us. I can't smell it. I can't touch it. I could feel it, I felt it, and it drives me.
Andrew Cohn: So when you talk about getting to know people in a spiritual way, does that mean something like probing, pursuing, exploring that beyond exploring that? I mean, we're talking about getting into this other realm here. But it's practical and it's important and it's real.
Andrew Cohn: So I'd love to hear you describe what that is. You talk about knowing somebody in a spiritual way. Does that mean in the deeper, less physical?
James Smith Jr.: For me, it's the possibility of thinking. This law of attraction is the belief that there's something out there that's bigger. And having those conversations, I just want to understand, even as a speaker, as a coach, as an author, just because I understand your perspective doesn't mean I agree, but at least I understand where you're coming from. That will help me be a better leader and will help our professional relationship be better. You want me to build trust.
Andrew Cohn: And so I hear a lot of practicality in what you're talking about. A lot of you know. So we will work better together if we know each other in this way or if we've had this type of conversation.
James Smith Jr.: I believe so. So I want to be able to come to work and bring the man, the father, the fantasy football guy, the Eagles guy, the writer.
James Smith Jr.: I wouldn't be able to bring all of me. I didn't always feel like that when I was in corporate. I guess some people call it code switching or covering. Yeah I did what I thought I needed to do to be safe and to fit in. But in a way that's trick or treating every day, not just what I've told 31st. You're putting that mask on. I want to create an environment where people feel free to be the best versions of themselves and not move into what I call the impropriety threshold for authentic expression. Every organization has their corporate values and norms and mores. And if your level of authentic expression is in violation of those corporate norms and values and mores, then you're into the impropriety threshold for authentic communication. You could be an authentic jerk in Austin. Narcissist threshold is not going to protect you there. But outside of that, I want to encourage people to bring the best versions of themselves. I believe authenticity is a matter of more or less not either or either you're more authentic and less authentic given the situation.
James Smith Jr.: And for the folks who definitely would definitely believe in spirituality or spiritual leadership, I think that expression will be enhanced with the lack of fear and community and empowerment.
Andrew Cohn: Do you think that speaking with colleagues, whether it's leadership levels down, forget levels, just speaking with someone at work and really under doing our best to understand who they are, what motivates them is a spiritual exercise.
James Smith Jr.: I think it's a number of exercises. It's enhancing communication. Okay. It can be a communication exercise. It can be an inclusion exercise, or a spiritual exercise. It can be a peaceful exercise. It's wanting to understand what makes you tick, what you believe in. And I've always been open to learning that, truly wanting to understand why that element of diversity is in your front seat, but also going to understand why it's in your trunk. Because our life experiences are different, but we may have those elements of similar places, but we may not. And that's okay. Just let's talk about it. Why do you think about race? Why don't I think about gender? Why don't I think about sexual orientation? Why do I think about religion and spirituality all the time? It's.
James Smith Jr.: Yeah, I think it's a conversation. It's an exercise that could satisfy or bring tuition. A number of ideas related to effective communication and relationships.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. When I hear you talk about this, when I'm recognizing that the open conversation is the relationship. Right? I've heard people say that the conversation is the relationship. The conversation is the opportunity, not the desired outcome. The conversation creates safety.
James Smith Jr.: Yes.
Andrew Cohn: Wants to be an openness, creates the safety and creates.
James Smith Jr.: You're making deposits. You're making deposits. When it's time to withdraw, the bank is open because you made a number of deposits. Or the relationship is open.
Andrew Cohn: And the banker will take your call.
James Smith Jr.: That's why I say leaders lead. First, share what's in your front seat. Before you ask what's in their front seat, you be the vulnerable one. You take the risk and see that as not as risky a task as you as you talk about.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And to the extent that the leaders and again, that could be anyone at any level, to the extent that leaders feel uncomfortable afraid to do that, that's our work to do.
Andrew Cohn: That's my work to do. If I feel like I'm holding back, perhaps there's something in that paradigm that has to do with spirituality in some way. Perhaps there isn't. But I think that's the opportunity, right? It's the race to vulnerability. Yes. And the relationships.
James Smith Jr.: And I spent a lot of time just being still, whether it's meditating or just eyes close, just laying down, just thinking things into fruition, seeing it happening. Changing the story. When something happens to us, we create a story. And that story is typically negative. It's getting rid of the story, staying in the moment and believing that you're going to be okay. And I do that a lot. And I do it a lot. And I learned about it doing that in college. My coach would always tell us to do some meditating or visualizing before the game or before practice. And I've been doing it for a long time.
Andrew Cohn: And did that visualization at the time. And by the way, I knew that the Eagles would come up in this conversation, and they knew that your wonderful experience with your champion football team would come into play.
Andrew Cohn: Was that meditation visualization about performance? Was it about imagine yourself making this play or responding in a certain way? Or was it something less specifically performance based than that. I'm curious.
James Smith Jr.: Many times it's performance based, professional or personal. And it's being still and seeing myself doing what I want to do correctly. Even when I went skydiving, I saw myself reluctantly jumping, but I didn't see myself jumping in and landing safely. Even though I was overwhelmed by the 15,000ft in the air, I was about to jump into its performance in its living, its participation. Yes, that's a great term. It's participation. It's living that existing, it's participation and believing, not thinking, believing that things are going to turn out okay.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. It's such a beautiful example of deliberately and purposefully changing my point of view. Yeah.
James Smith Jr.: And as the author and leader that I am, and I'm standing on stages and platforms sharing my truths and my opinions, I have to live what I did. I have to. I'd be a hypocrite.
James Smith Jr.: And that's one of the reasons why I went skydiving. My number one fear is heights. I said, jump in.
Andrew Cohn: And what was your experience with that?
James Smith Jr.: probably the most afraid to do something I've been in my entire life that was really living what I give. I'm like, no, gotta do it. You got to do it. I didn't tell a lot of people. And I remember the date. August 18th, 2018. 818, 18. And, this is ironic that I was raised as a gentleman because when we were getting on the plane, I let everyone on first. I was the last one to get on. Last one. All. First one off.
Andrew Cohn: Okay.
James Smith Jr.: It's a funny, funny, funny story, but it was a story around belief, around faith, around law of attraction. Because I've been telling people for years I was going to do it. And finally someone held my feet to the fire. And just enough of that thought.
Andrew Cohn: And was it a positive experience?
James Smith Jr.: Absolutely.
James Smith Jr.: That. Into another metaphor for life. I told my mentor that I did it, and I thought that she was going to be as ecstatic as I was. And she said, no, you do crazy things all the time, my friend. But in your role as a leader, you can teach people how to jump off the plane every day, jump into starting their own company, jump into writing that book, jump into rebranding their organization. Just jump into having that challenging conversation that you put on hold for years. Teaching him to jump every day he's a bucket list is a wait list. Just waiting to do something. Do a jump every day.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Well, thank you for jumping into this conversation with me. I appreciate it. And let me ask you to share with whoever may be listening, what's the best way to reach you? If someone wanted to continue this conversation, and what should they be reaching you about other than just all this wisdom, you have to share.
James Smith Jr.: The two ways.Website. jamessmith.com that's Doctor James Smith Jr or social media doctor James Smith Jr. Please reach out to discuss issues of presentation skills, authenticity and leadership, but primarily authenticity and presentation skills. How to make lights out presentations, how to be compelling, life changing, game changing, and so forth. So Doctor James Smith, jr. social media, LinkedIn as well, and website. Arthur James Smith jr. Com.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Well, thank you for turning the lights on so brightly in this conversation. I appreciate that and look forward to continuing the conversation with you. As always.
James Smith Jr.: Thank you for the opportunity and I really, really, really appreciate it. And take care.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Thank you James.
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