Intersectionality, Identity, and the Heart of Leadership, with Zhou Fang
Why do most leaders mistake religion for spirituality? They're not the same thing. One is about doctrine. The other is about your mind, your heart, your connection to nature, community, and the people you lead.
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cohn welcomes Zhou Fang, an equity, diversity, and inclusion (EDI) consultant, practitioner, and strategist, and the founder of The Intersectional Group, based in Portland, Oregon. Zhou draws on her background as an immigrant from China, a multilingual communicator, and a woman of color to bring a uniquely grounded and intersectional lens to leadership and EDI work.
Zhou shares how she once considered herself an atheist and never expected to connect with the word "spirituality,” in part because growing up in China, spirituality was culturally discouraged–if not outlawed. But over time, she discovered that spirituality, distinct from religion, is about the mind, the heart, and one's connection to the world and community around us. That realization has become central to both her personal life and her professional work.
The conversation explores the concept of intersectionality, a framework coined by Professor Kimberly Crenshaw in 1989, and how understanding the overlapping, ever-changing dimensions of our identities is essential not just for justice work, but for anyone who wants to lead with clarity, compassion, and authenticity. Zhou describes human identity as a roundabout: a dynamic center where many roads converge, shift, and evolve.
She also offers a deeply practical vision of leadership: not as a title, but as a verb. Leadership, in her view, is about compassion, showing up for people even when you don't fully understand their struggles, and spirituality is what helps her stay grounded, reconnect to her heart, and keep doing the hard, draining, and necessary work of equity when things get tough.
This episode is for any leader who wants to better understand how identity shapes the work, how compassion and intellect must coexist, and why doing good–and knowing why you are doing it, is at the heart of sustainable leadership.
Tune in to discover how intersectionality, spirituality, and equity-focused leadership can work together to help you lead from the inside out.
Key Takeaways
It encompasses the mind, heart, and connection to nature, community, and other people, and it evolves as we do.
Our overlapping identities, race, gender, age, immigration status, and more, are always in motion and must be recognized in how we lead.
Anyone doing purposeful work and giving voice to something meaningful is already leading.
You don't need to fully understand someone's struggle to show up for them, and that showing up is what leadership is really about.
The intellectual demands of equity work are real, but compassion, which only requires a heart, is equally essential.
Zhou grew up in a small city with temples and synagogues, yet family members practiced Buddhism and Christianity.
When the work feels exhausting or futile, spirituality brings practitioners back to their purpose and grounds them in what matters.
Intersectional and equity-focused leadership must be tailored to the size, culture, and context of each organization.
We practice leadership because we want to do good, and spirituality can help us understand and act on what goodness means.
In This Episode:
[00:00] Spirituality as connection to mind, heart, and community
[01:50] Introduction to Zhou Fang and her work
[06:36] Zhou Fang’s personal and professional journey
[08:52] Growing up in China as an atheist and discovering spirituality
[09:56] How her grandmother's shift from Buddhism to Christianity shaped her view
[11:41] Why spirituality is bigger than religion
[16:10] The roundabout metaphor
[17:32] How intersectionality connects to EDI work
[19:08] Why EDI work is intellectually and emotionally demanding
[19:56] How spirituality reconnects her to her purpose and the why
[22:30] Why compassion is at the heart of leadership
[24:13] Compassion vs. intellect, and why both are necessary
[27:04] An overview of Zhou's EDI services and approach
[28:35] Why equity-focused leadership matters for business sustainability
[30:24] How spirituality shows up practically in her client work
[33:04] Where to find Zhou Fang and The Intersectional Group
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Zhou Fang
Website: https://www.intersectional.group/
Email: zhou@intersectionalgroup.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zhoufang35
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Listen to the episode here
Watch the episode here
Transcript
Zhou Fang: I think spirituality, in a sense, is bigger than religion. Like, spirituality is about your mind, about your heart, about your connection to nature, to the world, and to a community and other people around you. If we look at ourselves and individuals as a roundabout island, then intersectionality makes a lot of sense. We are the center of our own identity and that changes over time as well.
Andrew Cohn: Leadership is about giving voice to that goodness or contributing to that, making that goodness happen. Am I saying that in a way that makes sense?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, I think so. And I appreciate you pointing that out. And for me, talking about evolving, right? Like, I never considered myself a leader until someone pointed out to me that you don't have to have leader on your title to be a leader.
Andrew Cohn: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. Spirituality in Leadership is a platform for conversations with leaders at all levels about bringing our spiritual dimensions to our leadership, our teams, our workplaces, and all areas of our lives in order to achieve greater success and fulfillment and build and sustain healthier organizations. If you'd like to connect with me to talk further about these topics and or about individual or team coaching, leadership workshops, or team alignment, please go to my website, lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm Andrew Cohn. This conversation is a very interesting and somewhat different conversation because it's with a new colleague of mine named Zhou Fang. Zhou is Chinese, ethnic Chinese, has lived in the US for a long time and she is an equity, diversity and inclusion consultant, practitioner, and strategist. The name of her company is called the Intersectional Group and she talks about her background as an immigrant, as a consultant that works in the diversity space, and then a bit about her own view of spirituality and how it supports her in her work. Very practical. Coming from a very different background. I'm so grateful that she's part of the podcast community. So she talks a bit about her work focusing on equity focused leadership and about her background that her being an immigrant and multicultural and multilingual really helps her in the diversity, equity and inclusion space. And then the conversation shifted a bit towards spirituality and she said she never thought she would associate herself with the word spirituality. She said China is an atheist country and that citizens are never encouraged to practice religion or spirituality. Family members of hers can consider themselves members of different religions, including her grandmother who converted from Buddhism to Christianity, which she said was really quite unusual in the city that she grew up in China.
She talks about intersectionality and again, the name of her company is called the Intersectional Group. And she talks about intersectionality and how the intersections in our lives are key to helping us form our identities. And the different directions that we're going, the places we come from, all move in and create this intersection that help make us who we are and shape our identity. And for her, she talks about how it's helpful to understand spirituality in her life. And she brings her spirituality into her work. And when we talked about, well, how does that happen? How do you use it in a very practical way? And she said that her work is about understanding people and societies. It can be very intellectual and it can be very energy consuming. And she said her spirituality brings her back to the why and why am I doing this? Reconnects her to her heart and to her beliefs. And she said her spirituality helps her support. It helps support her when things feel hard. And in a very, very practical way. One of the things I love, she said, she said we practice leadership because we want to do good in whatever that means and whatever our role may be and our activity may be and how. Leadership is not a title, it's activity. It's about doing. She said, we want to practice leadership because we want to do good. And spirituality can help with that. So very, very practical approach that she has. Very simple and practical approach. She says she brings her spirituality to her work, and there are many times when she wants to tell people to just flip off. She said our world today can be somewhat dark at times, but spirituality helps her be compassionate and empathetic for herself and others, and it grounds her and helps her to be more stable when things are challenging. It's a lovely conversation, I hope you enjoy it.
Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership podcast. I'm really happy to have with me today Zhou Fang, a diversity equity inclusion practitioner in Portland. Portland, I almost said Portland, Maine, Portland, Oregon, US And I've worked with a lot of DEI practitioners over my career and a number of people in Portland and. But your background's a little bit different. Your approach may be a little bit different to what you do. And that's one of the reasons that I love having you in this conversation. So welcome, Zhou.
Zhou Fang: Thank you, Andrew. It's definitely a pleasure coming to your program. And thank you for having me. Yeah. Excited to be here and chat about spirituality and leadership.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Thank you. As we've discussed, this podcast is about the intersection or the application of these spiritual dimensions of us as human beings or dimensions that many people would call spiritual. It's not important to me if somebody labels something the same way as me. And how the workplace needs those dimensions. And these are conversations about how we can bring some of these dimensions into work for the benefit of ourselves, our teams, our businesses, our business results as well, and our cultures as well. And maybe my suspicion is that you may talk more about cultures than some other people would. Maybe that's kind of your. Your target area. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your background. And also, as you would describe it, I don't want to read your CV, but. Or describe. I have, but I don't want to read out your CV and also to talk about your journey and how it has led you to this place to even consider things that might be called spiritual.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question. And it's kind of a big question too. So I'll do my best to kind of share my background a little bit. Yeah. Again, my name's Zhou Fang. My pronouns she, her. I think in my kind of identity kind of journey, the most important one is I'm an immigrant. So I'm an immigrant from China, and I moved to the US about 13 years ago and have been living here. And I started from the Midwest as a student, so another identity is international student. And then I moved to the west coast, eventually settled in Portland, Oregon about 10 years ago. And I also identify as a woman, as a Chinese, and culturally Chinese American, but ethnically Chinese. And I was working as a professional communicator for like almost 10 years before I moved to the diversity, equity and inclusion space a few years ago. So, yeah, so that's basically kind of my background in a nutshell. And during my professional journey as well as my immigration journey, so both combined, I started to learn about diversity, equity and inclusion. And I, through a lot of, like, volunteering and self educating and talking with my peers and colleagues, other people of color or folks from underrepresented communities, I realized that this is the area I want to be in because I believed that my immigrant experience and my multicultural and multilingual background can really help me in the diversity, equity and inclusion DEI space. So when I got my green card a little over a year ago, I decided now it's a good time, you know, to get into the space and try to help other people and also create something for myself at the same time. And talking about spirituality, I never thought I would associate myself with the word spirituality. It's really interesting, actually. So I grew up in China. I grew up in South China. And China, generally speaking or politically speaking, is an atheist country.
Andrew Cohn: Like, and did you grow up in a big city or a smaller.
Zhou Fang: A smaller city. So it's like mid size or even. Not even mid size on China Standard?
Andrew Cohn: Yes. Yeah. The smaller cities in Chai. Right? Okay.
Zhou Fang: Yeah. So I grew up in a small city, it's called Guilin in South China. G U I L I N South China. And we have temples, we have synagogues, we have spirituality practice all over the place. However, by definition, China is an atheist country. So that's, that's kind of like a politic thing and politics thing. And we never were encouraged as citizens to practice religion or, or spirituality. However, it is allowed. So it is interesting what people practice and what people choose not to practice. And some of my family members consider themselves Buddhist. And I had my grandmother who passed a few years ago, she was a Christian, actually.
Andrew Cohn: And is that unusual for her generation?
Zhou Fang: It is kind of. I mean, for South China it's a little unusual because we had a lot of missionaries in China, like, say, very deep West China and Northeast China and East China as well. But for South China, I don't know. Like, I'm actually not an expert in that area. But in my household growing up, we never had a Christian. And my grandmother, she was a Buddhist. And then I think she came across the Bible and she, she was a big reader. So she read and was like, oh, this is great. So she decided to become a Christian in her later years. And I think that's why, kind of part of reason spirituality is interesting is it doesn't have to stay the same. You know, it changes as we grow, as we age. So when she passed away, she was a Christian. But my entire life until recently, quite recently, I consider myself an atheist because I just didn't think spirituality was something that would resonate with me. And also because of my own limitation, or maybe it's a language thing, I don't know. I had always considered spirituality as religion, but now, of course, they are very different things the more I learn about them. So religion and spirituality, they can overlap. But I think spirituality, in a sense, is bigger than religion. Like, spirituality is about your mind, about your heart, about your connection to nature, to the world, and to a community and other people around you. So as I, you know, I'm, I'm 35 years old and I'm, I have a lot to learn. But I think as I get older, I discovered that spirituality actually can be really helpful, not only for someone's personal growth, but also career and leadership practice. And it's particularly important for my equity, diversity and inclusion work because my foundation is intersectionality, and we're all intersectional beings and humans and animals, and I think understand that the intersections in our lives actually have been really helpful for me when it comes to understand what spirituality looks like for me, because it's all fluid. Like, it. It's not always set, and there's always something new. It always changes. So I think my. Yeah. So anyway, my work, spirituality, I think they are very well connected.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sorry I did cut you. I apologize. But I wanted to just focus a little bit. So when you talk about it as fluid as I have heard you define intersectionality before, to me, it has to be fluid because it's constantly in motion. There's sort of a, I don't want to say circularity, maybe that fits, but there's emotion to it. So I'd love to hear, first of all, for you to define what intersectionality means for anyone who's listening, but then to go back and say, well, it's definitely. Spirituality definitely relates to the work I do in DEI. And that's. You said that very matter of factly. But I'd love it if you couldn't make that connection a little more explicit, please. So it's two things.
Zhou Fang: So intersectionality is a relatively new term. It was created in 1989 by Professor Kimberly Crenshaw, and it was very kind of like in legal settings. So it was a serious term. It was a serious framework because it helps people and guide people through sometimes very complex and challenging social and racial issues. Because when it comes to injustice, right, like people of color, especially black people, they face more challenges and sometimes very dangerous challenges when it comes to social issues. They are more marginalized and more discriminalized as well. And so intersectionality was created because of that. Like your skin color, your ethnicity, your gender, your sexual orientation, sexuality, your religion. Right. Your spirituality practice, your ability, status, socioeconomic status. And if you were a veteran or not, all those create our kind of, not necessarily defined us, but they are who we like. They make us who we are.
Andrew Cohn: Would you use the word identity? They shape our identity, or is that not the right word?
Zhou Fang: They do shape our identity. And our identities can be multiple. Like, it doesn't have to be singular. It can be plural. So I think intersectionality addresses that. And because of that, when we live our lives, we sometimes face challenges because of the intersectionality in our identities. Like, a pretty easy example is age, right? Like, we all age. And when we are younger, we experience life and we are treated differently versus when we are older. And if we put. If we add gender to that, and if we add sexuality to that, then that even makes it more complicated. So if you are an older woman, your treatment from the society might look different than an older man. And if you are non-binary, your experience will definitely be also different from older men or older woman. So that's a real life example, you know, how intersectionality can change our lives and affect our lives in different ways. And I think, like, a more fun way of looking at intersectionality is to, I think we might have mentioned it last time is we can see ourselves as like a traffic runabout. And so every roundabout is connected by different traffic lanes and ways and roads.
Andrew Cohn: Well, coming into it.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, and into it. And those roads can change as well. Sometimes they are more straightforward and sometimes they are more kind of like crooked and wider or narrower. And sometimes, you know, some animal would run across this roundabout, who knows? And there are trees, there are flowers, there is a bus stop there. And sometimes some bike will come across this roundabout too. So if we look at ourselves and individuals as a roundabout island, the intersectionality makes a lot of sense. We are the center of our own identity, and that changes over time as well. And it doesn't stop evolving as we grow, because it will always evolve and change. So that's another way of kind of like a visualization of intersectionality.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Yeah. That helps me understand it. Understand it better. That's great. And so for you, how is it that it's so clear to you that there is a connection between the DEI work that you do and things that may be called spiritual?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, yeah. I want to say it's clear, but it always changes. Sometimes it feels clear, sometimes it's fucking murky. I think we've all had these moments of asking ourselves, why am I doing this? And as a DEI practitioner, I ask myself that question pretty regularly just because things get hard sometimes, right? Yeah. Like, I work on this project. I spend so much time, I work with this group of people. I spend so much time and energy and my. My brain cells, my emotions. And I'm trying to make meaningful changes to the people I serve or to the work I, you know, put my energy on. But sometimes our expectations don't actually meet reality. Changes can be hard and. And also, change can only happen when you want to change. You can't make a horse drink water like they have to want to drink water. So because of that, I sometimes ask myself, just like, you could have done so many things differently. Like, you. We were talking about going during our lives, like, why are you not traveling? Why are you not taking time off? Just go live your life like you are 35. You know, do something fun. And the work, my work is fun to me and I enjoy my work. But sometimes when things get hard, I do kind of like, oh, man, like, why am I doing this? And I think that's when spirituality comes in. Because the EDI work, equity, diversity and inclusion is very intellectual, is to understand people, understand society, understand communities, and also use your empathy to understand people, understand why is this happening. So it's very intellectual. It requires a certain degree of understanding of history, of politics, cultures, and different rituals in different communities. And it's about respect as well. So it can be very energy consuming when it comes to our diversity, equity and inclusion work. And sometimes you get very tired because it consumes your brain so much. So the way spirituality helps me is it brings things back to the why am I doing this? Because I want to. Right. Because this is fulfilling to me and this is good for my heart. And my heart wants to do this work, not because I'm good at it. Sure. That's part of it. At the same time is because I have this belief in my heart that this is the work I want to do. This makes me feel happy and I want to do something good. And if I can make a living while doing good, then that's awesome. So I think spirituality just constantly reminds me where my heart is and why am I doing this hard work.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. I appreciate that connection, that definition and the practicality of what you're talking about. When things get tough, I can go to that place, I can tap into that place of, and this is my word, that place of purpose and that place of what's the deeper why. That's beautiful. One of the things you shared with me earlier in sharing some of your ideas before this conversation is you said we practice leadership because we want to do good. And spirituality may help with that. And I just love the simple sort of elegance of what you said. Maybe that's your first book or second book, I don't know. But we practice leadership because we want to do good. And spirituality may help with that. Whatever the term may mean to us, that can help us with our understanding of what is good, of what it means for the world to be good for us, to be good for us to be at our best. And leadership is about. Is about giving voice to that goodness or contributing to that, making that goodness happen. Am I saying that in a way that makes sense?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, I think so. And I appreciate you pointing that out. And for me, again, I talking about evolving, right? Like, I never considered myself a leader until someone pointed out to me that you don't have to have leader on your title to be a leader. Anyone can be a leader. Anyone can lead. If you are doing something that you can give a voice to and you can talk about, if it's some initiative that is really awesome and cool and you are talking about it, then you are leading it. And by definition, you are a leader. And leadership, to me, this is another kind of recent, relatively new thing to me is leadership largely is about compassion. And I think compassion today is oftentimes being overlooked by many leaders because leaders do otherwise, because lead is a verb. And if you are a leader, you lead and you have to do something. So you are always in motion. Like, you are always trying to figure things out. You are always trying to answer some questions. You are always trying to solve a problem. But oftentimes there's no immediate answer or solution to every single problem you run into as a leader. And leader works with real people and real communities. Like, it's not some lofty kind of fancy title, like, oh yeah, he works in what? They work in leadership. What does that even mean? Like, you have to engage with people, with the communities you serve. And that's what a leader does. But the thing is, we often do so much that we forget about one thing. We have to just. I should rephrase this. We work so much, we do so much that we forget we have to be human centered or nature centered. We have to connect with the people we work with. We have to connect with the forest. We have to connect with the river. Especially right now, there are so many environments, mental activism going on. So we have to have that connection. And compassion helps us with that. Like I often say, EDI work is very intellectual. It uses a lot of your brain cells, use your way of understanding or interpreting things. But compassion doesn't really require any of that. Compassion only requires a heart that can feel for other people. I may not understand your struggles fully, I may not understand your problem fully, but that doesn't mean I cannot show compassion for you or show up for you. And I think that is essentially what a leader should be like, is to show up for other people. And I think compassion really enables us to do that. And in my way of seeking compassion, I think spirituality helps a lot with that because I tend to intellectual everything. And that can be very draining and tiresome and really toxic sometimes. And practicing spirituality, however we want to understand that or look at this really helps me feel like. Helps me feel for other people and helps me have compassion for other people. And I think that's what leadership is about. When we are trying to do good, we have all those methodology and ways of doing it. But then again, at the end of the day, it still is about our heart. So that's my interpretation of spirituality and leadership.
Andrew Cohn: I love that at the end of the day, it's really about all heart. And the intellectual conceptual work will get done. It's not about excluding that. But perhaps, and I agree with you, and perhaps in our world now, we need to maybe shine a little light on the compassion piece, knowing that the intellectual piece will be there. It's not one or the other. Absolutely. I was just on a call this morning actually with a board. I'm on a nonprofit board and the board chair and I were speaking about some next steps with the organization and leadership. And she said to me I was encouraging her to mentor someone else on the board. And she said mentoring to me is all about heart. And even when I'm feeling overwhelmed and really busy or feeling sometimes unprepared with certain intellectual dimensions of the work, some technicalities or things like that, I always have time to mentor people. And it energizes me because it's from the heart. And I thought that was beautifully said. And to make that distinction, where does that energy come from and where is that dimension of leadership driven from?
Zhou Fang: Absolutely. And thank you for sharing that. I totally agree.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. So what kind of work do you do for your clients? I'd love to highlight a little bit about what you do.
Zhou Fang: Oh, thank you. So this is where I can sell EDI work. I work with clients and they can be organizations, teams, individuals on their equity, diversity and inclusion work. And it's largely about people and culture. And I believe that EDI is not for you to look good. EDI is for you to do the right thing and be smart about your business or your organization. Equity, diversity and inclusion should be part of a company's strategy and business plan, and strategy and plans change and evolve and so should equity, diversity and inclusion work. So say a team is five people. So a five people team's EDI work has to look very differently from a 50 people team. So I really want to bring that intersectionality into EDI work because there's no cookie cutter, there's no playbook like say, hey, we print it out every year and you are fine. So that's part of the thing I do on EDI is this is continuous work. And another big component to my work is again, leadership. I think we already touched on the right leadership and spirituality. How can we be a good leader for our people and for our organization and for our business? And I think everyone has a different opinion and different approach. My approach is equity focused leadership and intersectional leadership. A big chunk of work I do is to help leaders understand leadership is not again, like, you can see leadership as a job, like it's a job title. Sure. At the same time, it's about how you do things and how do you interact with people. And you know, historically speaking, leadership in the United States at least is very white centered. Right. Like the way people run an organization is based on the assumption that it's mostly going to be white people working in this organization. And so I think that's changing rapidly. And if leaders and companies and businesses don't recognize that, they will trail behind and eventually they may go out of business or fade out in history. And of course, inevitably that's what happens to every company after a certain amount of time. But for the longevity and for the sustainability of an organization and a business, leaders and people in leadership have to organize, recognize that intersectionality and equity centered work is really good for companies, culture and business. So if you want to grow your business sustainably and you know, for a very long time, then you have to learn about intersectional leadership, have to learn about what's going on in our world and have to bring that equity lens in our leadership work. So that's also another really big component in my work these days.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Great. And would you say that you bring. Would you say that you bring your spirituality, however you would define it, into your work and therefore into your clients?
Zhou Fang: Yes, absolutely. Because there are numerous times when I just want to say, fuck you.
Andrew Cohn: Okay.
Zhou Fang: I mean, it's true. And because things are hard and sometimes people are difficult and it's not their fault. Right. Because we're all flawed human beings and working. So in my line of work, and probably in your line of work too, we work with people who are very different than us. And that's a good thing. That's what intersectionality is about.
Andrew Cohn: It's not an easy thing, but it's a good thing.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, it's not an easy thing, but it's a good thing. But as someone who work in this space, you know, sometimes I just feel like, oh, why don't you get it? Right? Like, why, why has it be. Why does it have to be so hard? So I would get frustrated, of course, and anxious sometimes and stressed out. And also the world can be. Our world today can be very dark. Can make you feel very dark.
Andrew Cohn: Yes.
Zhou Fang: So I think spirituality helps with. Helps me again, with being compassionate and empathetic to my clients and to my clients. I don't love the term clients, or I should say maybe the partners I work with in EDI work. It can be an organization, it can be a team, it can be an individual. But we're all partners on this journey when it comes to DEI and leadership. So I think spirituality helps me bring the intentionality back to my work and helps me kind of like center and helps me ground myself when I feel unstable or feel frustrated or sometimes disappointed, really, even in my own work because I don't do everything perfectly. And I think intersection. Sorry, spirituality helps me have compassion for myself as well. So I think it definitely helps my work. Not only helps me working with my partners, but also helps me show up for myself when I have that need doing this work.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. And I've been coaching leaders for a long time. You're a bit younger than me, so it could shock you how long. But leadership is an inside game. Right. What we do inside first impacts our actions, impact others around us and. Absolutely. So thank you so much. And where. Where would people look to learn about your work? What's your website?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, so it's intersectional.group. so it's www.intersectional.group. and you can also email me directly, you know, to zhou@intersectionalgroup.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn as well. My name is Zhou Fang. So, yeah, those are the good ways to find me and get in touch and get connected and talk.
Andrew Cohn: Right. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I don't want to say philosophy. It's very practical. I suppose it is a practical philosophy and how you connect these things very, very clearly. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Zhou Fang: Thank you. I mean, I've always wanted to be a philosopher, but I guess that's not gonna happen.
Andrew Cohn: Well, maybe you are. You're just a philosopher with a different job title.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, I actually feel I'm more of a therapist. I think leadership work sometimes feels like therapy work.
Andrew Cohn: I would agree with that in my experience. Yes. Well, thank you so much. It's great to talk with you and I look forward to continuing our conversation. Thanks Zhou.
Zhou Fang: Likewise. Thank you, Andrew.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. Thank you for listening to Spirituality in Leadership. If you want to access this wealth of knowledge and insight on a regular basis, please subscribe to the show. Join the network of leaders who want to do and be better. You can go to the site spiritualityinleadership.com or your preferred podcast platform to catch all the episodes and learn more. Until next time, take good care of yourself.