Cultivating Growth and Trust: A Holistic Approach to Leadership, with Dr. Erika Kleestorfer
In this thought-provoking episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, Andrew Cone Cohn is joined by Dr. Erika Kleestorfer, a seasoned leadership consultant and executive coach. With over two decades of experience in corporate leadership development, Dr. Kleestorfer offers invaluable insights into the intersection of spirituality and leadership. She shares her unique perspective on how understanding one’s essence, core values, and inner light can help leaders navigate challenges and inspire teams to thrive.
Drawing on her extensive experience working with global organizations including IBM, Dr. Kleestorfer explains how spirituality in leadership is not just a concept, but a practice that enhances business success, team cohesion, and individual fulfillment. From creating a safe space for emotional growth to utilizing frameworks like the PERMA model, this episode provides both spiritual wisdom and practical tools for leaders at all levels.
Key Takeaways
How understanding your true essence as a leader can transform your team and organization
The importance of asking deep, reflective questions to uncover core values and beliefs
How to cultivate trust and emotional safety within teams to foster open and honest conversations
The connection between root cause analysis and spiritual leadership in navigating complex challenges
Why the PERMA model is essential in fostering positive workplace climates and employee well-being
The impact of generational shifts on leadership and how younger employees are changing the workplace dynamics
Practical tools for integrating spirituality and leadership to achieve both personal and organizational growth
In This Episode:
[00:00] Introduction to Dr. Erika Kleestorfer and her background
[03:07] The essence of spirituality in leadership
[05:23] Key questions for leaders to ask themselves and their teams
[07:46] The connection between emotional intelligence and effective leadership
[10:25] How leaders can foster a culture of openness and trust
[14:17] The PERMA model and its application in leadership
[18:45] Adapting to the changing workforce and generational shifts in leadership
[23:10] Practical steps for integrating spirituality into corporate leadership
[28:05] Closing thoughts on leadership and spiritual growth
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Dr. Erika Kleestorfer
Website: www.kleestorfer.com
Podcast: Alles Liebe, Erika – Podcast on Spotify
Workshop: Transformational Leadership Journey
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Listen to the podcast
Watch our podcast episode
Transcript
Erika Kleestorfer: For me, spirituality is something that starts within me. So it is, when I talk about spirituality, it is actually my essence. It's who I am, truly not our conditioned self or our trained self, but it's really my essence. So what I stand for, what I believe in the light that shines from within.
Andrew Cohn: What questions do you ask your clients to help them access this place and this connection?
Erika Kleestorfer: My job is very often to hold the space for them to dive a bit deeper and to meet at the deeper level, to look at the root causes for certain issues. To then,
Speaker 3: welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership Podcast hosted by Andrew Cone. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach, and consultant who works with leaders in teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching leadership workshops or team alignment, please go to www lighthouse teams.com.
Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I speak with Erica Klier. And Erica is a longtime practitioner, uh, corporate leadership development, uh, specialist, uh, working for IBM first in Austria and in other parts of the world. She's had her own, uh, coaching and leadership development practice for quite some time, and just by way of.
Quick overview introduction. She's a remarkable resource, uh, for understanding culture, changing workforces, individual leaders needs. And, uh, she talks a bit about cultivating healthy soil for, uh, growth and productivity and high yields on teams in very practical, simple ways. I appreciate her expertise and her perspective, and I think you'll enjoy the conversation.
Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership Podcast, and I'm really thrilled to have with me my friend, Dr. Erica k Soffer from Vienna. I'm so glad that you're with us and, and agreed to be on this podcast because I just love your perspectives about leadership and life, and I'm sure you have some interesting things.
To share about this topic of spirituality and leadership and I don't know what they will be, and that's, so it's exciting for me. Erica is a leadership development consultant and executive coach. She has been work globally with IBM. She has worked with Duke continuing education in Europe and around the world.
She's had her own consulting firm for almost 20 years, which means you must have started when you were 15. So good for you. It's a pleasure to have your perspective here, I will say in advance, so welcome to the podcast.
Erika Kleestorfer: Thank you so much. Thanks Andrew.
Andrew Cohn: As we've talked about, this podcast is really about the intersection of the spiritual dimensions of us as people, or what people might label spiritual.
Not everybody used it the same language. That's not important, I don't think, and how those qualities are so important in leadership now more than ever. In terms of business, uh, success, and also in terms of team cohesion and individual fulfillment, et cetera. And so the way we work on these dimensions for ourselves and how they are needed in the workplace and how does that happen and what have you seen and all of that.
So I'm curious to know for you, when I talk or introduce this notion of spiritual dimensions of us as human beings, how is that part of your work or part of even your own philosophy about leadership?
Erika Kleestorfer: Well, first of all, thanks again for the invitation. I love talking about spirituality and the intersection with leadership because this is, uh, what I strongly believe in because for me, spirituality is something that starts within me.
So it is, when I talk about spirituality, it is actually my essence. It, it's who I am truly not our conditioned self or our trained self. It's really my essence. So what I stand for, what I believe in, the light that shines from within and light, it sounds a little bit esoteric, but for me, light means my own clarity, my own strength, my values.
So what I fight for also. I think this is, it's so important to know actually who I am truly, and especially as a leader, it's important because of my behavior as an impact on the team I'm leading on, the organization I'm working for. So for me, these are crucial questions we have to ask ourselves every single day actually.
Andrew Cohn: So, okay. So now I'm, now I feel like I need to ask you what are the questions, the deeper questions, the most important questions that, and I know for you, you practice what you preach. So some of this is about what are the questions that you ask yourself. And another question, related question might be, what questions do you ask your clients to help them access this place and this connection?
Erika Kleestorfer: Yeah, for me it's very much about clarity, asking questions like as I said, who am I truly, but also as a team, a leadership team as an organization, who are we truly? So what do, do we stand for? And I worked, for example, last week with 15 uh, top leaders in an organization, IT company, a global IT company. And I had the impression that they are really open with each other yet.
They still stay on the surface. Yeah. So they still polish the surface rather than going a bit deeper and asking also maybe some unpopular questions or asking questions that might hurt because they have not yet an answer to them or questions like, so how do we deal with the tension and issues that are between different departments and everyone knows about it since years.
But no one really talks about it. So it's, you know, like the elephants in the room. And so my job is very often to hold the space for them to dive a bit deeper and to meet at the deeper level, to look at the root causes for certain issues, to then, uh, come to the surface again and find solutions that are more sustainable.
Andrew Cohn: As I hear you describe that, I, I'm sort of hearing there's, there's work happening on two levels. There's root cause analysis, there's business problem solving. There's all that important cerebral work that we need to do to keep the business running at a high level. I. And there's also this deeper, more personal, I mean, what, five minutes, two minutes ago?
You're talking about the light within each one of us, and now you're talking about root cause analysis. Mm-hmm. And I don't hear the two of those as separate. Mm-hmm. But for you, how do they connect and how do you speak to your clients about that in a way that it gets traction so that you can have both conversations?
Erika Kleestorfer: I really like how you play it back to me because, uh, so you, you see. What I'm talking about. So I think this is what we usually as external facilitators or consultants bring, is to speak their language. So the question is, where do I pick them up? And it's usually need them. Yeah. Where do I meet them? It's usually at the, let's say, factual side, rational side data analysis.
And then once they trust the process, they trust that this space is safe. Then you can bring them also more to the emotional side, uh, the side where people open up to talk about their fears, you know, their, uh, tension, whatever they're concerned about. But it is really a process for me. It's like being a gardener, you know?
So you, you have to make the soil soft to then bring in new seeds to blossom, and, and it's really this groundwork. I think this is what I see quite often is so that, um, especially in organizations and you know that a bit more old school and you know, who are coming from very, who are very hierarchical, very structured, who are uh, top down for them, it's really much harder.
To open up and to speak about maybe spirituality or software issues than film organization who is used to it.
Andrew Cohn: I feel like I need to ask you this. I thought I'd hold this until later in the conversation, but you've just teed it up a little bit, but, and what's that like in an IBM? You know, you've worked in IBM, traditional organization, technology organization, and what's it like?
In Austria, Germany, and just culturally there, as opposed to say in the US or in England or in other places where, well, I'm not even going to tell you what my assumption is, but tell me what it's like in, in your part of the world.
Erika Kleestorfer: I think you find everything everywhere, you know? So it really has to do with the organization, what they stand for.
Again, what's their essence and what's the logic of an organization? What is their, what are their values? What's their purpose? What they want to bring in the world, the difference they wanna do. So are they more conscious about what's going on in the world? Are they just driven by numbers, figures, and stakeholders?
So it really, it really differs and I, I've seen everything also here. So there are organizations where I'm totally impressed how open they are and that they really look outside the box. They really wanna make a difference, not just for the organization, their employees, but of course for their clients. I wouldn't put them in boxes.
I, I don't want to put any country or culture into a box. However, what I can say is, and as you know, also, there are organizations who are still. Caught. I have to feeling caught in old structures and for them it's so much more difficult to get out because people want to hold on on what gives. Security to them or what is new, what they're used to, you know, and to really, I mean, I, I talked to a friend actually today on my way home and, and we talked about changing organizations and she said she has been working with a team for now three or four years, a leadership team.
And she really tries to bring in some changes regarding corporation and how they. Uh, work with each other. The openness they have, the style of cooperation, and she said that even after four years, they still fall back into old habits. You know, they still want to talk about our numbers, our figures. They don't want to go to the relationship level and talk about, Hey, how are we doing as a team?
You know, are we really honest to each other? Is this the space where I can get energy and not lose energy? So this is still after three, four years difficult to them. So. I think to break a pattern, to change culture. I mean, you know, that needs years and years and years. Climate is something I can change within days, but not culture.
Andrew Cohn: And how do you describe the difference between climate and culture? I have my way of doing it, but I'm curious to know how you talk about that.
Erika Kleestorfer: Well, culture is something for me that is expected and reinforced within a certain culture. So, uh. Certain manners, certain values. So something that is also expected here to be polite, to be friendly, da, da, da.
And if I am like this, then it will be reinforced and also acknowledged. Yeah. And climate for me is more how people feel in an organization. It's more. Temperature. I mean, and its perception is reality, you know, especially with climate, you know, and I usually say, I give the example of when you enter a room, and let's say it has.
20 degrees. I don't know how much it is in fait, but let's say 20 degrees. And for some people this is perfect temperature and for others it's too warm. And for the others it's too cold. We experience the same climate, the same temperature, but the perception might be totally different.
Andrew Cohn: Right.
Erika Kleestorfer: And and culture is also, of course, culture needs time, time, time to establish and culture is.
Not immediately seen. So it's, you know, when you have the iceberg model, culture is actually something that is beneath the iceberg. Yes. It shows in our behavior, but not that it's that obvious immediately.
Andrew Cohn: Right. It's reflected above the surface in behavior. Yes. But you can't necessarily spot it right away.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yes.
Andrew Cohn: So I'm curious to know, what are some ways that you begin to introduce this topic of not necessarily label anything as spirituality? But these deeper connectedness, I mean whether it's light within inspiration, things like that, how do you, I. Begin to plant the seeds to make the soil softer so that these conversations can happen.
Erika Kleestorfer: That's a good question. I have to say that I love the first hours with a team I have never met before. So the first you're smiling, so obviously it's because for me this is like, it's really like magic, you know? So these are the moments where may sometimes strangers meet if it's an open session, for example.
But if it's an existing team. For me, still it is magic or a magic moment because you meet people for the first time. You don't know what is going to happen. You don't know who they are. You don't know how they interact with each other. You don't know how their leader, who might also be present is interacting with them.
So it's quite complex. And this is something that I laugh because for me it's very much about observing, observing the dynamics within people, individual people, but the collective also, and sensing the energy that is in the room. Sensing also how people. Act with each other. So is it in a very respectful, supportive way or is it in a more formal way, you know, where they don't become personal, not private, but personal?
I think it's about observing what's going on and I usually, at the beginning, I always have a quite strict agenda. So to meet them at the. Strict plans. So this gives kind of an outlook for them and maybe a security. And then within that frame, I try to stay as flexible as possible and then go with the flow and see where this is leading me.
But it's, and usually what I do is at the beginning I bring in one, two, or three basic models about teams, about leadership, about communication, just to open up with. Many examples that are typical for individuals, but also team interactions. And by doing so after feeling day. Find themself in those models and stories and examples, and then it's easier to start or co or to continue with the conversation.
Andrew Cohn: Right. No, I understand. And I think that's true in my experience too, that structure provides safety.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yep.
Andrew Cohn: It's like I, okay, so you're inviting me into something and you're showing me a little bit of the map, and that map lets me know where I am, I feel more safe, we're moving along, and then perhaps there's the opportunity to open up, you know, if, if, and when the time is right, et cetera.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yeah. And for me, you know, Einstein said, I mean, he said many good things, but there's one quote, I laugh, it's called, the play is the highest form of research. So I bring in also quotes or Yeah. Some inspirational sentences that also might open up something.
Andrew Cohn: Can you repeat what he said again? I wanna be, sorry, I'm, I'm hearing you
Erika Kleestorfer: play is the highest form of research.
Yeah. Is one that I use quite often. The other one is creativity is intelligence, having fun. So that it's so important to be creative, but, and you know that to be creative means you have to have really a foundation of competence and. You can start playing,
Andrew Cohn: right? Yes. To be comfortable enough, us to be creative.
To be secure enough. To be creative. Thank you, by the way, for sharing him with us. As you did in the past, you shared Einstein with us. Thank you. And I'm curious to know how you've, you've been doing this work for a while. Um, which doesn't mean that you're old, but you've been doing this work for a while, and so I'm curious to know how have you seen it change either the willingness to engage in conversations like this, uh, the ways to approach, perhaps there's something shifting with a younger workforce now, or as more of the workforce becomes younger, younger than us.
And younger and younger. How have you seen things change over the years?
Erika Kleestorfer: Oh, big question. Many, many changes, but when I. I mean, before I joined IBM in 96, I used to work for three other corporations, but we didn't have a lot of training or management development or anything there. So at IBM, what I noticed back then, and yeah, it's more than 25 years, I had the impression what I experienced quite often was, and I had men only most of the time in leadership workshops.
I had the feeling they were sitting like this. Like, okay, tell me. So it wasn't like, Hey, yes, I wanna learn, you know, give, it was like saturated, you know? It was like, oh, okay, so what else shall I learn or listen? And, and we had to and, and usually not, usually back then, we had a five day workshop with those leaders.
And I had the impression that the first two days, my colleague and I, we really had to sell it to them that this is good for them and you know, and that they, uh, realized the value of it. And after two days they loved it and they were the biggest fans of the content. But it took, it, it. It was very draining for me and for us because it was all the energy we put into it.
Nowadays, after feeling the change, that at least my perception after the feeling, people who attend workshops, I'm leading that they want to be there, you know, so that the, they're interested to get ideas, they're interested to learn what? Absolutely changed for me is also that it, I mean, back then also it was very interactive, whatever we did, because also back then already blended learning.
But I have the feeling that the younger generation, they really, I. Interested in experiential learning. They want to play, they want to feel it. They're open to it. There is not too much shame. If they fail, they fail. So after have feeling that the younger generation, they, they're so much more playful, which I love, you know, it's, there's okay, trial and error.
Of course. What changed dramatically is that we do a lot of online nowadays, and I think the combination is fantastic. So whatever. Skews the content, whatever makes most sense, to deliver content to a specific audience. I don't know. What do you see as changes? What do you see as, do you see as the biggest changes?
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, I appreciate you're asking. I, I mean, I, it really, it varies, so it's not one thing or another. I mean, there, there are some cultural differences, et cetera that happens. And of course, organizational culture is a huge, you know, factor. But I think that younger folks now are more. Is there more out with a notion of, you know, what are we doing and why are we doing it?
Um, the need to connect to the organization's purpose. There's more, certainly, I think, and this has been research as far as what I've seen, a shorter term view, like a job is a job, is like an education. And once I've learned all there is to learn from this job, I'll move on. I'll graduate and move to the next thing.
And there's not the expectation that, I mean, when I was starting my career back in 2015, no, I'm just kidding. When I was starting my career, it, it was, you know, when I started in my law firm, the expectation is you'd start in the firm and you'd see yourself in that corner office. Yes. And that's, that was the expectation.
Mm-hmm. Whereas now I think it's a very different expectation. And some of that is. I think misperceived as a sort of entitlement, like I'm the new young employee and it's like, tell me what's great about here and tell me what I should, where I, why I should stay and I'm not mm-hmm. Perceiving it like that, but rather.
I just see it differently. I just, in the world we live in and it's because of generational changes and generational traumas, et cetera. Mm. I think people are not, I'm not going to give hand my career to you, you know, Ms. CEO of this company. My career is my career. Mm-hmm. And I'll be here for a shorter period of time, and not in a negative taking energy way, but rather in a, just I view the career path as different.
I. Because of that, I think there's more pressure on leaders to create an environment that is, that is rewarding and that is satisfying now. Not, you know, we, I can treat you like shit now, but that's be, but because she'll get a big payoff later. Um, that I don't think that works anymore, uh, to the same degree.
And I, I know that I'm dating myself a certain degree to be perceiving in that way, but it is a little bit different. I have a son who's. Entering the workforce now at 22, and I hear the questions that he asks and I watch the way he, he writes cover letters and interviews and, and begins to talk with different companies that are coming after him.
And what is he asking? And it's largely about experience. The quality of the experience, and the luring experience. And the opportunity to contribute, perhaps contribute now, not, you know, put in my time. I'll just do something, you know, very uninspiring for two years before I start contributing. No, I think that's changed.
But anyway, that's, I don't wanna fill this recording with all my thoughts, but that's some of what
Erika Kleestorfer: Thank you. You know, I totally agree with that. So that's also, uh, an observation I have so that people are more demanding, younger people are more demanding, which I like. Because they're asking important questions also.
And what I've noticed also is if you create an environment for them to blossom, for them to develop, they stay also years, five, 10 years. So it's not that they want to change every two, three years, but if they have the feeling, this is not the place where I can. Have great experiences where I can learn, where I can move out of my comfort zone, uh, where I can grow and develop, then they won't move on.
So it is absolutely, as you said, it is more not difficult. It is a bit more challenging for leaders because it's not just a given that people are happy there, but they have to do also something for it, which I think is fine because that's also the job of a leader and a manager. So I think also mm-hmm.
Actually that. That absolutely changed that Leadership nowadays is not just being the functional expert, but it's really, you have to have the expert skills and you have to have the social emotional skills.
Andrew Cohn: And those skills relate to what? Say more about those skill, that group of skills you're talking about.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yes. Well, as a leader, you know, in the past, usually the expert was promoted to becoming a manager leader and. Some of them actually didn't even want to be a leader, but you know, they didn't have any other things to promote them. So okay, let's become a leader. But to have those expert skills is nowadays not enough because they have to have.
Skills to integrate people, to make them grow, blossom, to have, uh, conversations that are difficult to deal with, conflicts to whatsoever. So it's not just the, the, the expert skills, but you have to have the social emotional skills and you have to have also the skills on which method or which, uh, structure or which tool might help us now to solve a problem or to develop people.
Andrew Cohn: When you talk about growth and blossoming, you're back to your soil to use your
Erika Kleestorfer: metaphor. Absolutely. And this is actually something to bring in a little bit of research, is that in the past 20, 30 years. Whenever you read research about what is it that employees expect of the leaders, it's always the same.
It's whether it's Simon Sinek or other, or Harvard Business Reviews, uh, where you can read it. Usually people expect, I want to be seen in an organization. I want to be heard. I want to have an environment where I can play out my strength. I want to feel like I have my professional home. So belonging. So these are basic human, uh, needs.
And this did not change, you know, and I think it's even more important now to create that environment for people to feel well and to have the feeling that they can really grow and blossom. And, you know, that I work with positive psychology and there's also this PAMA model, which I also like.
Andrew Cohn: Well say more about that.
And, and the, and how that model connects to what you are talking about.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yeah, it comes, uh, it, uh, comes from positive psychology and Marcus Edna, he's actually a colleague from me, from Vienna. He's the father of Perma Lead. And he or they still do, uh, a lot of research about what is it that, um, what are the ingredients, let's say, of the good soil.
So how can you do this groundwork? And they found out. Five different aspects. So PERMA from Perma Culture and Peace stands for positive emotions. So employees want to feel an an atmosphere where they can have fun, but we're also, they're not afraid to speak up and to say what they don't like about so positive emotions, but not only me, uh, me.
So we are happy all the time and their only positive feelings, but positive emotion means that, wow, this is an environment where I can be myself. I can have a good day, I can have a bad day. So it's okay. So we experience together positive emotions. Yeah, we speak up, we say what's on our mind. We give each other feedback and so on.
The E stands for engagement that I. Can play out my strength because my leader, my manager, he or she identifies my strength and puts me in a position where I can bring out a play out. My strength there are stands for relationships. So is this an environment? Is this a team where we have really good relationships, not just superficial relationships that break up with the first conflict, but really.
Strong relationship that last all to conflict. That last, do you say that that last difficult conversation? Yeah. Then PERS, uh, MM stands for meaning, and you mentioned it before that people wanna know what's the purpose, you know, I mean, what, what, what's the purpose of this organization? My team? Why we here?
Why, you know. Uh, does it make sense? So they want to understand, you know, uh, yeah, why are we here and our contribution that it matters. That makes a difference. And the last one, a stands for accomplishments that people, again, want to be seen for what they contribute, but they want to also get feedback on an ongoing basic and recognition.
And ideally that we celebrate, you know, progress on our way, not just when we finish the marathon, but after maybe five kilometers, 10 and so on.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. Right. And I also appreciate how that model incorporates some of what we're talking about in terms of these spiritual dimensions of ourselves and how to bring that into the workplace in a very functional, operational, business focused way.
Erika Kleestorfer: Absolutely. And again, you know, this is kind of a structure, but within the structure you can be free and you can explore and you as a leader can. Make up your own perma
Andrew Cohn: and what does that look like within your culture, for example, in the specific business? Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Interesting. So I'm curious to know if you have any stories to share about how leaders and teams may have made that model of their own, how they've used it, and how they have, have grown and used it, um, for their shared benefits.
Erika Kleestorfer: Well, there are different ways to use it. So one is you could also do a 360 degree feedback on your own perma, the perma you create for your employees. So this is one aspect. You can do a questionnaire also. It's not a 360, it's just a personal questionnaire, and you can do it with the whole team and then you can also look at it.
So what is the consolidated feedback of that individual questionnaire? And that's the sim, the the easiest. But I think also very effective ways that you show them the model. And this is what I do very often also with existing teams. You show them the model, you walk them through and then you let them identify where are we right now?
Where are we good at already, and where do we want to maybe improve? Let go of to start, stop, continue doing, you know, so. And so this is for me sometimes already a good starting point for deeper conversations, for more open conversations in an existing team. And if they like that, so this beginning, let's say, then you could dive deeper and do the three, six, then so on.
But this is a good starting point. So to, to show them the model and then, uh, let them evaluate where are they in respect to the different, uh, dimensions.
Andrew Cohn: That seems like a very, very practical way of approaching it. And again, it shows, here's the model, here's where we are in the model. Um, I feel safe entering into this journey with you, even though of course in the process we may be uncovering some things that, oh, wait, this is a deeper issue, but now I know where it fits in and why it's important.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yes. And Mark was, Eno is the founder of this Perma Lead model. He is working with big corporations for years and years and years. So if they want to have a cultural transformation from, let's say, top approach to a more democratic approach, more participative approach, then they bring in this model and then they have different workshops and different initiatives to actually yeah, bring it to life and to, yeah, move from a maybe more rigid soil to a more fluid flowing soil.
Andrew Cohn: I love how the soil metaphor is continuing to show up in this conversation. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I really appreciate your sharing your experience and your wisdom and what, well, one question I have for you for sure, I wanna be sure we captured this in our recording. If people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where should they look?
Where would they find you?
Erika Kleestorfer: Well, you find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, and uh, of course our homepage. And I'm sure you will edit to the show notes or shall I say it or
Andrew Cohn: please? Yeah, please say it. Okay, then we can put it too.
Erika Kleestorfer: Yeah, so it's uh, please tofa com. So www do please tofa do com and you find all the information you need.
And I've opened podcast. Oh, ah, there are so many things. I, uh, thanks for asking. I have also YouTube channel and I have a podcast, but it's in German, so it might not be. That interesting to the English speaking audience, but it's called, is Leadership Starts Within You. So it's about self-leadership and leading others.
Andrew Cohn: Nice. Yeah. Well, I do look forward to, well, I, I won't understand it, but I'd love to hear it and I look forward to learning more about it as we've talked about. So
Erika Kleestorfer: yes, and I look forward to interviewing in my podcast.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. But you don't do too many of these in English, right?
Erika Kleestorfer: Uh, well, not yet, but you know.
Andrew Cohn: Good.
Erika Kleestorfer: That's always the beginning.
Andrew Cohn: Let's cross that bridge. We could do that together. Be glad to be a part of it. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and your wisdom and the different light that you've shed on this important topic.
Erika Kleestorfer: Thank you very
Speaker 3: much. Thanks for your interest and thanks for the invitation.
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