Bridging Worlds: Spirituality, Leadership, and Workplace Transformation, with Judi Neal
In this episode of Spirituality in Leadership, host Andrew Cohn sits down with Judi Neal, a pioneer in workplace spirituality and the force behind the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality and Edgewalkers International. Judi opens up about her personal journey, including her time at Honeywell, where she took a stand as a whistleblower—an experience that reshaped her understanding of integrity, trust, and spiritual resilience.
Together, Andrew and Judi explore how spirituality can transform leadership and workplace culture, making organizations more compassionate, ethical, and inclusive. Drawing insights from her books Inspiring Workplace Spirituality, Edgewalkers, and Creating Enlightened Organizations, Judi shares practical ways to integrate faith and spirituality into daily work life—no matter your beliefs.
This conversation is for anyone looking to lead with greater purpose, foster a more inclusive workplace, or simply navigate their career with a deeper sense of meaning.
Key Takeaways
Integration of spirituality into leadership and business practices
The concept of blessings in the workplace and recognizing inherent value
Personal experiences and stories related to workplace spirituality
The ethical dilemma faced by a whistleblower and its impact on personal values
The importance of aligning personal values with professional responsibilities
Fostering a culture of appreciation, trust, and community in organizations
The transformative power of spirituality in creating ethical and compassionate work environments
Impact of spirituality on leadership styles and organizational culture
The concept of "edge walkers" as individuals bridging material and spiritual worlds
Mindfulness and self-reflection as tools for effective leadership
Addressing skepticism and resistance to spirituality in professional contexts
Resources and frameworks for implementing spirituality in organizations
In This Episode:
(00:00:01) Introduction to appreciative inquiry
(00:01:09) Introduction of Judi Neal
(00:03:28) Reading from Inspiring Workplace Spirituality
(00:04:48) Moment of silence
(00:06:05) Concept of blessing
(00:07:26) Transforming judgment to blessing
(00:10:07) Impact of workplace negativity
(00:10:52) Appreciative inquiry practice
(00:11:00) Discussion on blessing and religion
(00:12:39) Cultural creative study insights
(00:14:45) Judi's journey into spirituality
(00:15:49) Whistleblower experience at Honeywell
(00:16:51) Moral dilemma in the workplace
(00:20:46) Spiritual awakening
(00:23:24) Consequences of whistleblowing
(00:24:33) Spiritual awakening and connection
(00:26:35) Legal action against Honeywell
(00:28:44) Teaching management and tokenism
(00:31:10) Common themes among leaders
(00:33:23) Reception of spirituality in the workplace
(00:33:49) Defining religion, spirituality, and faith
(00:35:48) Building bridges between worldviews
(00:39:14) Authenticity and trust in organizations
(00:39:59) Creating space for conversations
(00:41:26) Practices for opening doors to meaning
(00:43:47) Inspirational reading assignments
(00:46:47) Eileen Fisher's personal growth initiative
(00:48:04) Spirituality as a dimension of diversity
(00:51:04) Offering options for spiritual practices
(00:52:04) Gateways to workplace spirituality
(00:57:00) Gratitude and invitation
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Judi Neal
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Inspiring-Workplace-Spirituality-Future-Work/dp/1837536155
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Enlightened-Organizations-Gateways-Spirit/dp/1137335157
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Edgewalkers-People-Organizations-Bridges-Ground/dp/0275989208
Andrew Cohn
Music:
Listen to the podcast
Watch our podcast episode
Transcript
Judi Neal: To ask positive questions, known as appreciative inquiry, is to look for the divine and the holy in your workplace. The more you do this, the more you bless that work that you wish to transform, and the more you feel yourself transform, the more you will feel blessed.
Andrew Cohn: What have you seen leaders, or what are some of the practices,
Judi Neal: and I might have different language for it, but.
Judi Neal: If they wanna go in this direction that you and I are talking about.
INTRO: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership Podcast, hosted by Andrew Cone. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach, and consultant who works with leaders in teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching. Leadership workshops or team alignment, please go to www.lighthouseteams.com.
Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I speak with Judy Neal. It took me a little bit of time to get Judy on the podcast, but I'm so glad that we were able to connect. I think we've known each other for a bit and we've reconnected for purposes of of this podcast. A number of earlier guests spoke to me about Judy as a pioneer and the work that she's done at the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality at the University of Arkansas.
Andrew Cohn: Judy talks about her work as a consultant with Edgewater's International. She talks about her personal story of being a whistleblower in a major global corporation and how that led her on essentially. My term, not hers. Crisis of faith, reconnected with her spirituality and since that time, how that has impacted the work that she does and making a commitment to bring her spirituality to work.
Andrew Cohn: So she explores the qualities of people that bring these dimensions to their work, as she says. Always looking for that integration. She talks about the impact of trust. She talks about the impact of even very simple tasks. Like the most common thing that you can do to bring a dimension of spirituality to the workplace is to take a moment of silence at the beginning of meetings.
Andrew Cohn: And she talks a bit about how to do that in a way that's inviting, without telling, without lecturing, without imposing in any way. And. She begins the episode with a reading from her new book called Inspiring Workplace Spirituality, and near the end, she spends a lot of time talking about the practices identified in her research where she's always looking for ways for people to bring this type of connection between their personal spirituality and their behavior in the workplace, creating healthier, more ethical.
Andrew Cohn: Cultures, so enjoy. Welcome back to the Spirituality in Leadership Podcast. I am here with my new friend and one of the real pioneers in this space of spirituality and leadership in business, Judy Neal in the great state of Arkansas. And Judy is known for her work with Edge Walkers and perhaps most notably with the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality.
Andrew Cohn: And we'll talk about all of that, Judy. But first, lemme say, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.
Judi Neal: Yeah. Thank you Andrew. It's great to be here. It's great to get to know you.
Andrew Cohn: Thank you. Thank you so much. And breaking from tradition, which is always a good thing. So thank you for being an Edge Walker and doing that for this podcast.
Andrew Cohn: Maybe we should start a different way, and maybe we could start with your reading something from your Inspiring Workplace Spirituality book. Would you be willing to do that?
Judi Neal: I'd love to do that. Yeah. What I'd like to share is the first chapter in the book, which is called Blessings at Work, and it's actually one of the first essays I ever wrote, and I've been writing essays for oh, 25 years.
Judi Neal: And so this book is really a collection of different essays on workplace spirituality over my career. So here's the book for those who can see the video, and let me get to the. The page
Andrew Cohn: for those of you only listening, there was a book in the camera that's called Inspiring Workplace Spirituality.
Judi Neal: Thank you.
Judi Neal: Yeah. We'll try to be visual on audio. Audio geological at the same time. All right. This little essay is called Blessings at Work. Actually, let me before we start, as we're doing this, to say that in many places that practice, workplace spirituality, they begin with a moment of silence or prayer or a song or contemplation.
Judi Neal: And so you and I, Andrew, decided that it would be fun to model that a little bit by creating contemplative place. Together, a space together as we start this meeting. So for those of you listening are watching, we invite you to really center however that is for you and to ground yourself and just be in the present moment with however these words might have meaning for you.
Andrew Cohn: And if you're driving, please be very careful.
Judi Neal: Don't close your eyes. Yes, absolutely. Blessings at work. Andrew Harvey, author of The Hidden Journey, had a mystical experience in the early stages of his spiritual journey. He felt his body fill with soft light, and then he began to hear a voice. He knew it to be the voice of Mother Mira, his teacher.
Judi Neal: She said, you cannot transform what you have. Not blessed. You can never transform. What first you have not accepted. Blessed. How many of us are trying to transform our lives, our work, and our organizations without first blessing them? What does it mean to bless something or someone? One definition of blessing is to make holy.
Judi Neal: In your work, do you see yourself as holy, as connected to the divine? Do you see God in others? Do you see some kind of higher purpose or transcendent energy working through the organization? One of my spiritual practices is to try to see in everyone, including in myself as a child of God, in my better moments, I can see that each person is on his or her own journey of faith, and that they are doing the best they can.
Judi Neal: To bless someone, we must first suspend our negative thinking about them. This is not to condone unethical or inappropriate behavior. It is simply to avoid labeling a name calling even if only in our minds. The workplace can offer real challenges and opportunities to practice this kind of non-judgment judge, not lest you be judged.
Judi Neal: This is from Matthew seven, chapter one. When someone does something that upsets or frustrates you, the knee jerk response is often to judge and label that person. But what if we could take a breath and remember that this person is also a child of God? I try to remember to say to myself, just like me, this person has known suffering just like me.
Judi Neal: This person wants to be happy. When people in the Hindu tradition greet each other, they say, Namaste. The literal meaning is I bow to you and as frequently interpreted as I honor the divine within you. This is a form of blessing, of recognizing the holiness of the other. Often in the workplace, as in other parts of our lives, we wish we could change the people who appear to be preventing us from meeting our goals.
Judi Neal: If we are in a leadership role, we are expected to bring about change and transformation in individuals and in the organization's sphere of influence. The first transformation must begin within ourselves. This inner transformation requires moving from a mindset of judgment to a mindset of blessing. As an experiment.
Judi Neal: Think of one person in your workplace who's mildly annoying. Don't begin this experiment with someone in your mind who makes you really angry. Start with someone easy. See them as a child of God. Picture them as a baby. As having a divine spark within, have compassion for whatever may be going on in his or her life that might make this person act in a way that annoys or upsets you, then bless them.
Judi Neal: Perhaps you can say a prayer or simply wish that person well see what happens. That individual may or may not change, but if you change your mindset. Your feelings about that person may get gentler, and that could have some surprising effects on your relationship. Not only can we bless individuals in our workplace, we can bless the organization itself.
Judi Neal: The mood in many organizations is pretty dismal. This negativity can be contagious, and the lack of engagement can have a negative impact on customer satisfaction, employee turnover, and other factors that can affect the bottom line. Notice what happens the next time you hear a coworker complain about something in the workplace.
Judi Neal: Others readily jump on the bandwagon and add their complaints, and there's a real drain of energy as people commit misrate with one another. And then notice what happens if you ask a group of people to tell stories about a moment when they felt proud of working for the organization. You can get a real shift in the energy, in the very positive way.
Judi Neal: Look for what is good in your organization or what makes you feel proud to work there. Those are ways to bless the organization to ask positive questions. Known as appreciative inquiry is to look for the divine and the holy in your workplace. The more you do this. The more you bless that work that you wish to transform, and the more you feel yourself transform, the more you will feel blessed.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful.
Judi Neal: Thank you.
Andrew Cohn: Really sets a lovely tone
Judi Neal: as we bless each other and all those listening.
Andrew Cohn: As we bless each other, and actually, let me ask you this. How would you respond to someone who said, I don't know, I'm not a religious person. Blessing feels religious to me, but I like the idea of it. I mean, it's not a bad thing.
Andrew Cohn: I can't argue, right? I can't say that, you know, the world is a worst place if there are more blessings. But the whole religious thing, I can't get behind. What's your simplest definition of what A blessing is? A blessing that we could offer to each other or to a workplace or to something.
Judi Neal: Hmm. Yeah, and I think that's a bigger question of the, the issues around the language of spirituality and faith and, um, and the word blessing itself.
Judi Neal: Uh, you know, just to back up for a minute, the first time I really thought about blessing someone else or something, I was pretty young and I, I think I actually felt scared that lightning might come down and strike me, because who am I to bless someone? Isn't that just wow. Priests or ministers do. Mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: You know, I have no Right. It felt like such a religious thing that was very uncomfortable. And yet, like you say, there's something that that me went like, well I do kinda like the idea of blessing is wishing someone else well, there's a Buddhist prayer that that has says something like, may all beings be happy.
Judi Neal: To me, that's a blessing. We just want others to be happy and to be well and ourselves included in that, like a
Andrew Cohn: better world. And what would our workplaces be like if there were, you know, if some small percentage of people were clandestinely thinking this as they walked through the halls,
Judi Neal: uh, we'd like to tell you that that's probably happening.
Judi Neal: And it may not be a small percentage. There's cultural creative study by Paul Ray and Sherry Anderson that. Looked at values in the United States, and then later they looked at Europe as well. They found that 25% of the population deeply valued spirituality, personal growth, living in alignment with one's highest values.
Judi Neal: So it's spirituality. Related concepts are really a big part of people's value systems, and if they considered that the fastest growing group of values there, there were other groups of values around materialism or around stability. But the fastest growing group of values was around spirituality and ecology and psychological growth and wellbeing, and.
Judi Neal: Those kinds of things. So, you know, the, there's a good likelihood that there's some group of people going around and silently wishing others well and, uh, that could give us hope in the workplace. 'cause we also know there's groups of people going around wanting to climb on each other and reach the pinnacle by destroying as many as they can to get there.
Judi Neal: Uh, but they're smaller minority.
Andrew Cohn: Right, right. Noted. I would love to ask you about, I, I will ask you about your story and how you came to work in this space. But first, for those who don't know you, it was interesting. I was led to you by four or five previous guests on this podcast and said, are you're talking to Judy Neal?
Andrew Cohn: You should talk to Judy Neil. And so here we are and thank you for this. And could you just talk a little bit about what your work is? And perhaps you could weave your story into that. But we talked, mentioned the new book. Inspiring Workplace Spirituality. I mentioned the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality at University of Arkansas, but you're, and Edge Walkers has been your group for, I think, 20 years or so in the community that you've built.
Andrew Cohn: But please say more about your work and what you do, and then you go from there.
Judi Neal: Okay. Let's see. Well, I guess we'll start with the story and then I'll try to weave some biographical sort of resume kinds of things in there. The story that's gotten me onto the work that I do today happened when I was working for Honeywell.
Judi Neal: Human resources and I had finished my dissertation at Yale on building middle management commitment to organizational change. I had done that research to understand the change dynamics and so I was very interested in human resources and organizational development and what are the cutting edge things happening in organizations, and so I was attracted to work at this particular Honeywell plant.
Judi Neal: In Illinois where they were doing what's called sociotechnical systems, which meant statistical process control and total total quality management, but also group dynamics and all this leadership development team group training. And so I was in charge of really the cultural development for the organization of people getting more involved in their work and building this whole.
Judi Neal: Interlocking team structure. So that was the work I had studied, and that was the work I really loved doing. And while I was working at Honeywell, I was asked to work with a team in ballistics. This was an ammunition plant, and I was asked to work with a team in ballistics, and because their morale was low, and it seemed kind of strange because.
Judi Neal: They had the most freedom of any team. They were very self-managing and they had the highest pay because their work required a lot more knowledge and skills than many of the other manufacturing teams. Ballistics team was the one that did the testing of the ammunition that we built, and so it, it didn't make logical sense that the morale was poor.
Andrew Cohn: You would think that freedom and high pay would both lean, would tip the scale towards, um, higher levels of morale and engagements. One would think all other things being equal, of course.
Judi Neal: Right, right. You know, greater job satisfaction. Mm-hmm. When you look at the job satisfaction literature, those kinds of autonomy and mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: Interesting work and meaningful work, all of that, you know, they had all the factors. But they were all wanting to transfer out of that department and go to places where lesser pay and harder work. So illogical. So I was asked to go look at it and actually, you know, it's like build their morale, send that woman from HR out to the team and, and improve their morale.
Judi Neal: I don't know whether I was supposed to blow up balloons and do dances or what they expected, but the normal thing of, of interviewing everybody and collecting data and, and very quickly found out the reason the morale was poor is because they were being told to alter ballistics data and report to the government that these, this ammunition was effective when it wasn't and we were servicemen's lives in danger.
Judi Neal: They couldn't live with that. They had such strong integrity. One of the young men who worked in that team said, I stopped going to church. I have nightmares. I mean, it was just disrupting everything for them. They were really suffering and they were looking for a way out, and I asked their permission to blow the whistle essentially, and report this and get a stop put to it.
Judi Neal: That happened, and very quickly. Well, first of all, the plant, all the work was stopped in the plant and investigators came in and various people were interviewed and, and some people were removed from their positions. And so there was a lot of turmoil. And my boss called me aside and basically told me, you weren't supposed to find this out.
Judi Neal: And I went, oh my God. You know,
Andrew Cohn: I'm sorry. So your boss, he or she knew about it.
Judi Neal: He knew about it when he sent me out there. He just thought I would do the woman from HR dance and make them happy somehow. Uh, but he knew. He knew and he was condoning it. And so then I began to find out from other people that this was part of a plot at the top, management in the plant to up their, uh, bonuses.
Judi Neal: Because they didn't care if it was like, how much ammunition did you send out? It didn't matter to them. If it was quality, they're going, oh, it's probably just used in target practice. You know, it just doesn't matter. Um, so, we'll, the more we ship, the more we'll get bonuses. That's all they cared about.
Judi Neal: They didn't care about the consequences. But we're talking 35 and 40 millimeter ammunition in machine guns on airplanes that if one of them doesn't fulfill, its. Requirements, it could blow up in the gun, which blows up the gun nerve and the whole plane. And I mean, it's, there's high consequences for not doing the best quality and they just didn't seem to care.
Judi Neal: And so I was horrified and it was a wake up call for me because I found out lots of people knew about this and nobody was doing anything. And so I found myself asking like, why me, God. My spiritual life up to that point had been very inner private. I didn't belong to a church or religion. I had belonged to something earlier in terms of Protestant religion, but I, I wasn't a religious person, but I was drawn to spirituality for the inner calm that it would give me, but it was not a part of my outer life in any kind of way.
Judi Neal: And in the middle of this. Wake up call for what was felt like evil going on in the organization, and why was I the one that seemed to be put in this position? This peace came over me. It's just like there wasn't really a voice or anything, but it was just this sense, this inner sense of there's a reason.
Judi Neal: Just trust it. That you'll, you'll understand kind of, you'll know there's a hymn that goes, you'll know more about it by and by, which is more about heaven. But, but for me, it was like I came to understand that it would be shown whatever was next. The message for me at that point was this, spirituality stuff is not just a hobby.
Judi Neal: The things that, that I read and study for. Inner peace has daily application. It has deep meaning. It is a way of life and that I'm part of something bigger that I didn't understand all of us are, and that I came to see that in that situation. There was some reason that I was the one that, you know, things lined up for me to be the whistleblower and not someone else.
Judi Neal: You know, part of it's, I was an outsider to that community. I think that that, you know, that's a logical reason. I just felt like there was a spiritual reason too, and I made a commitment in that waking up time to, well, I called it trust the universe. That was my phrase. It's like, okay, there's something bigger going on here and I will just surrender and trust that I'll be guided and shown.
Judi Neal: That was. 1973. Because that was a long time ago. That's my strategic plan for my life, is trust and be guided. And, uh, I have not made other plans. I have kind of ideas and visions, but, but it is a way of life for me now. And I found even in the midst of my life being threatened after that, having to disappear for a while.
Judi Neal: All the drama that went on as a result of me becoming a whistleblower. Because I did call, I called the Honeywell corporate to report what was going on and all hell broke loose. That was probably not the best place to report this. And so anyway, I, I suffered consequences and I started really practicing the things I was reading spiritually.
Judi Neal: And some of that is like really looking for the good in a situation or in people like I read about in that blessing. What's the blessing in this crisis? What's the blessing in the messages I'm getting from leaders that I'm a bad person 'cause I created this chaos, how to make sense of all that. And the more I really surrendered to that, the better my life got, even in the midst of this craziness and.
Judi Neal: I realized, or at least felt that this was too good to not share with other people this way of thinking and being, which I think, Andrew, you may have stumbled upon in your own life, and I don't know if you've ever shared and if you have a transformation story in a wake up call, but that I'd love to hear if you're resonating with any of what I'm saying, if something like that has happened for you.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, thank you for asking. I know for me, I don't know that there was ever any moment, uh, a spiritual epiphany sort of thing. I can tell you that for me, there have been times when I've had ver but I have felt very connected to other people, particularly other people that I didn't know very well. In other words, alarmingly connected or shockingly connected.
Andrew Cohn: And for me, I would harken that to a bit. Of a spiritual awakening to the extent that for me, spiritual, I don't often define the term, but it's, it's, you know, being connected to something greater than myself would be a simple definition, greater than myself, could be something divine up there away from me like some people might believe.
Andrew Cohn: I don't personally believe that, or it could be connected to something greater that is all around me and that I have in common with these lovely people around me. Who perhaps 15 minutes ago I didn't experience so lovely. But something, something happens. It can be a little bit for me when I have experiences like that.
Andrew Cohn: If we were to categorize, it's a little bit like some of the definitions of the word awe I've seen recently, and the wonder of awe and the impact of awe is that for me, that. Can that can feel quote unquote spiritual. I would use that term because it's just more than I can explain. It's not an simply an emotional experience, et cetera.
Andrew Cohn: It's something bigger than that. There's something bigger than me. That's the way I might answer that. Thanks for asking.
Judi Neal: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. That very much fits with my experience and my definition, you know? So I did feel a part of something bigger and that there was meaning behind this, and so I ended up quitting.
Judi Neal: I. And because it was no future for me at Honeywell, there were a
Andrew Cohn: number, but, but you, but you, excuse me. You had the O, you had the opportunity to stay. It's not like you were forced out or fired or blackballed, or, I don't know.
Judi Neal: Well, what they did was take away all my job duties and forbid me to leave my office because they didn't want me causing more problems.
Andrew Cohn: Right. But we're not firing you.
Judi Neal: No. They knew better than to fire me. Right. Then I would sue. Mm-hmm. Well, I did Sue.
Andrew Cohn: Okay, so you quit.
Judi Neal: I quit. Yeah. And it was years later that I sued them and I won for harassment of a whistleblower. And so I left not knowing what I was supposed to do next, and spent a lot of time in contemplation and prayer and depression actually, because I had these big dreams.
Judi Neal: They had considered me fast track. Um, highly promotable, big plans for my career. And then all of a sudden all the doors were closed. I. It was over. And so I, I could see that there was nothing ever going to happen for me at Honeywell, and so ended up realizing that what was best for me to do after this experience was go back into academia.
Judi Neal: By that time I had my PhD from Yale. I had taught classes before. Now I've had corporate experience at a couple of different Honeywell facilities as well as a family owned business. Somewhere in between all that. Doing human resources, organizational change work, and I thought, well, I have now seen the best and the worst.
Judi Neal: Of organizations. And I remember when I first started teaching with no organizational experience, you know, I was a grad student and people would say, you know, the best teachers are the ones who've actually been there with their feet on the ground. And I could see why. 'cause I didn't know what I was talking about.
Judi Neal: Well, after all these experiences, I thought I had something to share. And I also felt a real sense of calling to help our future leaders. Understand something deeper about meaning of work and their obligation to society and not to, you know, to move from this consciousness of selfishness and ego and control to a, a consciousness of connectedness and compassion and caring for others and, and having high integrity.
Judi Neal: Uh, so I ended up getting a job at the University of New Haven teaching management. I was the only woman professor in a group of 48 other business professors. And uh, so I learned a little bit about tokenism. Oh, we need a woman on this committee. You know, we don't have any women. You must go be on this committee and, you know, that kind of stuff.
Judi Neal: So I up stretched pretty thin until I learned to say no. And by the time I went to the university, I had made that commitment to make spirituality central. To everything I do. So that meant my teaching and it also meant my research. And so my teaching was really about like I would say, a little prayer before I went into the classroom and to ask for guidance about how I can make a difference to this group of students in this next hour.
Judi Neal: And miraculous things would happen in class. It was always wonderful and a lot of personal transformation and healing for the students. That really made a difference and ma had meaning for me, and I decided that I wanted to do research on this phenomenon of integrating work and spirituality that I was doing on a personal level.
Judi Neal: To see, is there anybody else doing this or am I the only crazy person that, you know, thinks this might actually be a practical thing to do? And it was not hard to find many, many other people. So I began interviewing people about their spiritual. I've asked them to tell me, what's your spiritual history?
Judi Neal: Tell me about major faith or religious or spiritual turning points or moments in your life. From early age to now, and then I would ask them to tell me about their career story. And again, what were the major turning points and where was there any intersection between career changes and spiritual changes?
Judi Neal: And there were a lot, and it was very clear that when someone makes a decision to centralize spirituality in their lives, that it, it has a real positive impact on their career. It's not always easy. But it has a, a very, very positive impact on their leadership, on their way of being with others and on the impact they have.
Judi Neal: So that led to me writing the book. You mentioned Edge Walkers, which was the first book I had published. And because I called these people edge walkers because they build the bridge between the material world and the spiritual world. You know, nowadays we talk about quantum science and the, you know, the physical world and the quantum world.
Judi Neal: The world of energy. There's different languages people use and different kind of doorways they use to talk about this experience. Um, so some of it's religious. For some people it's being, there's CEOs I, I interviewed who are Catholic and who went to mass. One of them also did transcendental meditation every day.
Judi Neal: So he would go to Mass and then he would do tm. What a lovely man he was. He was the, uh, head of at t Canada, and he transformed that business basically through being loving. And his practices I think really helped him do that. And then there's people who didn't have any particular religious past, but who for whom a more secular spirituality guided them.
Judi Neal: Uh, and so I, I began to look for what are the common themes in their stories and what are the qualities that they carry? That are common in most of these stories and, and what is, so qualities would be more like what's the, what is their essence? What is their way of being? That's common things like I saw examples are self-awareness.
Judi Neal: They very, they all had self-awareness practices of some kind and other qualities might be high integrity, really aware of their values. Really committed to living those values. They're very passionate people. They're also very playful, and that was one of the most interesting qualities that surprised me, this sense of spontaneity and creativity and playfulness.
Judi Neal: So I, I write about that in the book. And then I asked them what do they actually do, particularly when I have tough business decisions to make, or there's a big opportunity and I wanna integrate their spirituality in their decision making about building a new business or merging with some, you know, whatever that business issue might be.
Judi Neal: And so I, I document some of the. Activities of the, uh, skills that they use that have both a spiritual component and a practical everyday business component to it. So really always looking for that integration.
Andrew Cohn: And when you share this information, when you share the findings of this and the overlap and the intersection and the impact, how is that generally received?
Andrew Cohn: Is it received warmly? Is it received? Oh yeah, we get it. Or is it, oh, I don't know. I'm still skeptical because it's religion. Why are we talking about religion in the workplace? I'm curious to know what your experience has been. Sharing that information, sharing the research that you've done. Here are the results of the research.
Andrew Cohn: How does that land? How is it received?
Judi Neal: Well, one of the first things I do, because I know that some people have negative reactions to religion or the word spirituality or the word faith. Those are kind of the three trigger words that for some people are pretty uncomfortable. And so I actually on, on a blackboard or a whiteboard, I'll, I'll put up the word religion on one side and in the middle I'll put spirituality.
Judi Neal: And then the other side I'll put faith and then I'll say. Tell me what religion means to you, and we'll brainstorm a bunch of things about religion, and I'll say, okay, tell me what spirituality means to you. We'll brainstorm that. We'll do the same for faith, and then we'll look at, geez, there's an awful lot of commonalities across here, and the words are actually kind of fuzzy the way people define them.
Judi Neal: But, uh, the final question I'll ask them is, is there any benefit of these things in the workplace? So words that commonly show up will be compassion, forgiveness, kindness, listening, fellowship, and I'll say, are these things harmful to the workplace or are they good for the workplace?
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: Oh, those are actually pretty good.
Judi Neal: The big deal is people don't want proselytizing.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: That's the main resistance. They don't want someone else forcing their religion on them. They want freedom of choice to practice a faith or a spiritual path, or not just that they just want freedom. And so if the organization, and by law, you must do that in an organization.
Judi Neal: So it's just helping people to know what's right and what's wrong and to value people having their unique paths. So I've found that once you allow them to engage in a conversation of what do these things mean and whether or not they might be valuable. The resistance goes away and they begin to see that it's not so scary.
Judi Neal: And when I, one of the reasons I developed this term, edge walkers was I wanted a term that wasn't religious or spiritual. I. This walking between different worldviews and building a bridge and integrating them. And you can do that in diversity. You can do that in functions like what's, I have um, an example in the book of one of my doctoral students who worked for Utility.
Judi Neal: I. And she was an IT person, so good at, at, uh, those kinds of systems. And her heart was in human resources, so she was getting her degree in human resources and when she graduated, she moved into human resources, but she could speak the IT systems language. To the IT people and the human resource language to the human resource people.
Judi Neal: And she would build bridges between them, which would lead to better systems that had the human element taken into it, as well as really understanding the best of technology. So there's a, a mindset, a way of being where people can have a foot in both worlds and build bridges. And those are the people who move our organizations forward.
Judi Neal: So why not support them?
Andrew Cohn: Right. And then the example you're sharing with this, with this person, with the technical experience and the people experience is need not be something that doesn't need to sound like other realms and know it's very practical. It's the people from this part of the office and people in this part of the office.
Andrew Cohn: And a greater bridge could mean greater results, uh, greater quality of conversation, et cetera. Very practically speaking.
Judi Neal: Very practically. Yeah, and you know, you've got the cross-cultural bridge building and these days in our organizations, people work from all over the world, and so to be able to make them feel comfortable and feel welcome brings out the best in them.
Judi Neal: I'm building a course right now on leadership in songwriting with a woman from China. And she's building in Taoism, which is a philosophy, not a religion. And teaching me about that as like, I wanna structure things, you know, I come from the business school, you know, and first you do number one, then you do number two, you're very linear.
Judi Neal: And she's like, you know, we don't need to be linear, Judy. You know, we can let things emerge. And so she's teaching me from her culture another way of being that, and I'm teaching her a little bit more about how to be organized. And so out of that comes something better that neither of us would've created alone.
Judi Neal: So, you know, there's just many, many ways to build bridges, but I do firmly believe that a deeper commitment to spiritual practice and a spiritual way of life makes that much easier and makes us more effective because we're not just doing it in our heads. We're doing it mind, body, spirit. We're doing it in our hearts.
Judi Neal: We're doing it holistically, and so it's more authentic. People feel it. They trust us. I really believe that trust is the glue that holds an organization together. It holds a relationship together. It holds a family together. And so any is we can be authentic and trusting and build trust that will be much more effective.
Judi Neal: And spiritual practices help us get there. They're not the only way. But they are a way.
Andrew Cohn: Right. And I appreciate your synap because I often find that the, A level of receptivity, doors of receptivity are opened for us human beings when there's acknowledgement that whatever I'm advocating for isn't the only way that suddenly there's just permission.
Andrew Cohn: You know, it's like permission to speak freely, sir, permission to open my mind that I don't feel like I'm being shoehorned into something, or essentially proselytized to use your word. Yeah, that you don't have an agenda to convert me to something, but rather to perhaps invite me into something and invite me with my own story, just as you asked me my own story earlier in this conversation.
Judi Neal: Right, right. Yeah. How can we support each other on our unique paths, whatever they are, how can we help each other be the best human beings we can be that's gonna help us individually and help us in our organizations? And to me, that's spirituality and leadership. Bringing up best in each other.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. I love how you say that in, in earlier conversations on this podcast, people have talked about what is it that brings people to life? What is it that evokes purpose? What is that, the deepest meaning for people? And, and here you are tapping this another, you know, with this language. Yeah. Perfect.
Judi Neal: Yeah.
Judi Neal: I guess, um, there, there's another, uh, zen saying, I think it is, it's like we're all fingers pointing at the moon. So our words, our language, they're just different words to try to explain an ineffable, unexplainable experience that has meaning and that we wanna share with others that they have their own version of it.
Judi Neal: Not that they have our experience of belief, what we believe, but that they can have their own highest experience to bring out the best in them.
Andrew Cohn: So what, what have you seen leaders do in your work, because you're an organizational change agent, in addition to being an author and many other things, what have you seen leaders do effectively to make those happen?
Andrew Cohn: To help other people open up these doors to what has the modes of meaning? For example, what have you seen leaders, or what are some of the practices? And I always steer conversations this way because I'm a coach and team practitioner. What works.
Judi Neal: Yeah, the simplest thing, and people often ask me like, what would be the first non-threatening low risk thing I could do if I want to implement something like workplace spirituality?
Judi Neal: And again, they might have different language for it, but if they wanna go in this direction that you and I are talking about, and the thing I've seen the most commonly is a moment of silence before meetings. Just this invitation to come together, settle in. Sometimes people will, uh, have somebody who guides a meditation, inviting people to center, inviting them to slow down, let go of whatever was happening before this meeting, come and be present, you know, on a neurological basis.
Judi Neal: That just helps us be smarter. Because our brains are all jangled thinking about, uh, all these crazy things that we were dealing with and stressful. And the amygdala screaming, help, help, you know, we can't think straight, but you calm down and you come to a meeting and then you could focus on whatever that issue is and bring your best.
Judi Neal: So a moment of silence doesn't feel religious or spiritual. It could, if someone's prone to defining and feeling something as spiritual. You know, if somebody who is religious might use that moment as a moment of prayer and say, dear God, please help me be my best in this meeting. But that would be a silent inner thing they say.
Judi Neal: I wouldn't advise someone in a, um, non-religious organization to tell everybody, okay, now that we're gonna ask God to help us be our best, uh, that would actually be against the law. And so don't do that. But if somebody wants to on their own. The moment of silence invites them to bring their religious self.
Judi Neal: Or if someone who follows a more secular spiritual path and thinks of things as energy, maybe they use that as a moment to settle down their energy and center their energy. And for someone who isn't inclined at all, it's just a moment to de-stress. Just to, you know, center and get in touch with their breath.
Judi Neal: We know that that's a physical thing that helps people be present. So that's the simplest thing that I've seen people do, leaders do. Another thing that I often get called in for is what one CEO, friend of mine called advances. He said, we don't, we're not doing retreats, we're not retreating. We're going to advance.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: And what he would do before his quarterly advances with his leaders is he would give them things to like podcasts or essays or chapters outta books. He would give them reading assignments that weren't work related, but they were inspirational. And again, they were not religious based, but they were inspirational.
Judi Neal: He would have them read these things and then in the quote unquote advance, they would talk about in the things you've read or heard. How does that help us with where we're trying to go strategically or does, how does that help you in your own leadership? And so that was more of an educational approach.
Judi Neal: But again, it was not a proselytizing, it was like across different disciplines, these writings and across different philosophical traditions. So that, that's one example. If you want to get more into real hands-on applied cultural change, there are some organizations that have done. An assessment that they, um, normally look at it as a values assessment.
Judi Neal: Richard Barrett's work. Mm-hmm. Corporate values is a real good example of that. Um, and
Andrew Cohn: I believe that's just, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think that's Barrett's Values Center for people who might be looking for that online. Mm-hmm.
Judi Neal: Yes. Yes, exactly. And Richard Barrett's work came out of his own study of more of the Hindu tradition and levels of consciousness.
Judi Neal: And so he has. Put this hierarchy of values aligned with levels of consciousness. And so he talks about helping to create conscious organizations. So that's a little more esoteric than say a moment of silence beforehand. Now, one of my favorite examples is Eileen Fisher. And Eileen Fisher, like puts her money where her mouth is in terms of valuing, and she's very open about value and spirituality in the workplace.
Judi Neal: And so for every employee. I don't know if they still do this, but um, the last time I talked with them about five years ago, they were still doing this. Every employee would get a thousand dollars a year for professional development and in their professional development plan, they would have to document how they spent the money and what the results were on their professional growth.
Judi Neal: And then they were also given a thousand dollars a year for personal gross. They had to document what they spent the money on. That was not work related. The, uh, and they put it in their, their personal or professional development plan. And there was examples ranging from going on a yoga retreat in Mexico to tubal lessons,
Andrew Cohn: tubal lessons.
Judi Neal: Somebody took Tube A lessons, that's what they used their a thousand dollars for. Somebody else would get massages. Someone else might go on a retreat with a guru or go on a, a Catholic retreat or something that was more faith-based. But they could, they could do whatever they wanted, but they had to report in that they did something to nurture their soul.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. Beautiful. And in a very practical way, how does this help? Right, so that the benefits and the value and, and, and the reward is here now in this business, not in some, after a life or whatever, sort of, you know, things that some people may not agree with philosophical, but they're very practical reasons.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah, and I appreciate the way you're describing some of these practices. One of the things, I think I mentioned this to you in our. Previous, um, conversation is that one of my goals is to de dogmatize this conversation of spirituality that doesn't need to be filled with dogma and rules and, and certainly proselytizing or anything coach, uh, close to that.
Andrew Cohn: But it can be inviting. It can be. I mean, I love the fact that this, these conversations that we have in this podcast, they dovetail so beautifully with the diversity and inclusion theme because, well. This is another dimension of diversity. It's another way that we're different. It's another way that we can e well certainly either learn from each other, hopefully that happens, or at least respect the difference and recognize that, okay, we're each bringing something a little different.
Andrew Cohn: And that's sort of interesting, that's curious. How could we, if we're not learning from it, we can at least accept it and we can at least, uh, cast a wider net for more broader minded smart people from different parts of the world who don't look like me or sound like me. Or book like me or op physically operate like me, but we can, it's another dimension.
Andrew Cohn: I appreciate that. It's a bit, you know, I, when I spoke with Morton Root, who senses regards to you, you know, a few months ago Morton said spirituality is just the latest thing that we can talk about now at work. Whereas in the past, maybe it wasn't okay. We, in, in the past, we couldn't talk about race or we couldn't talk about gender or we couldn't talk about certain things.
Andrew Cohn: Politics is still a no go. Largely, that'll get better too. It'll, I certainly, I certainly hope so, but I recognize and appreciate that. Look, there are maybe some things that we don't bring up because they just are so, uh, touchy and yes, I'd want that to be different, but I need to respect the reality and acceptance first, love of spirit.
Andrew Cohn: I need to accept that that's the way it is and. And honor that. But I appreciate the practices you're talking about are very practical. They're very inviting. I don't experience them as proselytizing. I'm curious to know if other people do. I've had clients who have said, we need you to come back and facilitate another one of our meetings.
Andrew Cohn: Bring that bowl with you. And they're talking about the seven metal Tibetan bowl that ever start the meetings. And for them it was super practical. And I'd say you could meditate, you could think about your child. You could, mm-hmm. Imagine yourself in a beautiful place where you could just take five deep breaths because we know from research that that comes down our nervous systems, and we all know that you're just coming from the last meeting and running in with your seventh refill of coffee and to be able to take even 60 seconds.
Andrew Cohn: And I would usually take no more than 60 seconds, just get me present. And it's something that I did before, you know, letting you into this zoom room here was to sit, was to take 60 seconds to clear my head. To say, okay, just to, just to be ready.
Judi Neal: I think that's such a basic and useful practice. And it is, it's simple.
Judi Neal: There's no, well, one of the things, the way you describe what you do, I, I would call like pre offering a buffet. You said when you, you could meditate or you could think about your child, or you can just take a few breaths that you're giving people options and they get to choose. So there's a sense of freedom and that feels right and what feels wrong and why people resist any of this kind of work.
Judi Neal: Again, they don't want anything shoved down their throats. They want the freedom to make their choices or to be left alone and not have this be a part of the way they integrate the world. That could be just my spirituality or my faith is private. I'll leave it between me and my my mosque, me temple, me and my church.
Judi Neal: Um. You know, some people want their separation, but to give them the options and always the option to not be involved, everything should be voluntary. And so somebody might not even wanna do a moment of silence, and you could say, well, we're gonna spend the first minute in silence, so you can come in during minute two.
Judi Neal: It's just always giving that option. And one of my books that I wrote, in fact, the second book I published, it was actually the first book I wrote and it didn't get published in a long time. It was called Creating Enlightened Organizations, and it's all about practices and all these people that I interviewed in the companies I visited, I looked for best practices in workplace spirituality.
Judi Neal: I call 'em the four Gateways to Workplace Spirituality. So there's the individual personal growth gateway, that's number one. Number two is the leadership gateway, so that you create leadership development programs that help bring out the, the highest integration of body, mind, spirit, and your leaders in however that works for them.
Judi Neal: The third is team. You can do team spirit, team development. I give just all practical examples throughout the book. These are all things organizations have done. And then the fourth is the systemic level of creating an entire organization that values workplace spirituality. There's not that many examples of that, but there were a few, and I do include Richard Barrett's work in there because there's an, assessments can be a piece of this if you're intentionally wanting to create a culture that nourishes the human spirit.
Judi Neal: So, so that book is full of of examples. I also did research recently for Fetzer Institute. They asked me to document what was going on in organizations with practices. And so I created a list of workplace spirituality organizations that include nonprofit for-profit, academic. I didn't do consulting 'cause there's like that would've taken me the rest of my life.
Judi Neal: There's so many consultants doing this work. That is if I tried to document all the individual ones and. I'd still be doing it, but that's available for free and I could send that to you. And we put it on your website to share with people if you want. And
Andrew Cohn: we could actually put that up when we post this website.
Andrew Cohn: It could be something that's posted with it, that there's a link to that would be linked somewhere or PDF. We'll figure it out. We'll make it happen.
Judi Neal: Whatever you want. I could put it on my website and, and you link, or we just have it on your website.
Andrew Cohn: That'd be great. We have people we can who know more about this, how to get this done.
Andrew Cohn: We'll, we'll make it happen. That'd be great. And I feel like I want to start to focus us down here. 'cause I try to keep these, these conversations cel less than an hour. First of all, I hope you'd be open to continuing this conversation because there's just so. Much to talk about. No. Thank you so much, and let's leave plan on part two for people who are listening.
Andrew Cohn: Those people who are still driving, they were driving at the beginning when we asked them to be very careful and not close their eyes. But if they wanted to learn more about where to learn about your research, where to see what your books are, just where would we steer them, where their URLs or firms or centers or.
Andrew Cohn: Where do people go?
Judi Neal: Well, my primary organization is the Edge Walkers International, and the website is www dot edge walkers. That's plural. Edge walkers with an s.org. And most of my books are still in print. And so they're available there, or you can order them from Amazon or any, any bookseller. And I have some research articles that are I've posted there that are free to download.
Judi Neal: And for somebody who's more research oriented, the one of the things they can do is go to Google Scholar and just Google Judy Neal and you would find my publications. And if there's something that you find but you can't get access to, 'cause you don't have a university library, whatever, just email me at Judy JUD i@edgewalkers.org and I'm happy to send my publications out to you.
Judi Neal: I love sharing this work and hope people will build on it more than anything else. I wanna give them the courage if they feel a calling to integrate spirituality and work. Oh, I wanna give them the courage that they're not crazy, that lots of other people are doing this, that it's an emerging field and that is really the right time.
Judi Neal: The world needs this right now. So I wanna help in any way I can.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Thank you so much and I think you are, and through your research and your stories and your invitation, so I do look forward to continuing this conversation. Super grateful that we finally made this happen, and thank you for that. And um, and just thank you for your willingness to, to teach from.
Andrew Cohn: The first step because you've been at this a while, and again, I've, I've spoken three or four guests on this show who have said, have you spoken to Judy Neil, you needed to talk to Danielle. Yes, you've been at this a while, but the way you talk about this is inviting. It's not overly academic. It's not something that I don't feel prepared to have this conversation, and I'm super, super grateful for that because it makes the invitation so much more.
Andrew Cohn: Welcoming. It's non invitation with conditions or, or expectations that way. So I appreciate just how you, how you offer and extend. Thank you.
Judi Neal: Thank you so much, Andrew. This has just been a joy being with you. Thank you.
Andrew Cohn: Lovely. We'll talk again.
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